Drawing Deckplans

[tneva82]

and you don't have "hidden Pirate base worlds" lasting 1100 years and regularly ripping off a massive 1000 world Imperium with scores and hundreds of Trillion Credit Squadrons.

And how those squadrons are supposed to find their target? There's no FTL scanners so only way you could find is send countless ships every direction in sub-light speed scanning nearest 6 parsecs(or more). Good luck finding needle in haystack. Time and money is going to be incredible high for such an effort. More expensive and time consuming than pirates...

You can't hit that whose location you don't know.

 

[tneva82]

I think that the price of energy is too inflated for the traveler universe. In my games I tend to treat the price of fuel as almost trivial. The costs come in ship maintenance and risk.

Huh. Fuel costs? What's that? What with free fuel available in almost every space system(1/12 chance of NOT being there...). My group has yet to pay single fuel load. Instead they just head to nearest gas giant and fuel it up.

 

[aspqrz]

The reason Piracy of the "real" sort no longer exists, and cannot exist, was, originally, the coal issue ... it simply wasn't available except at regularised depots as I noted ... but, as I also noted, ultimately it is the basing issue.

Er, Phil, Define "Real" Piracy.

I'm pretty sure this is where the error in logic is.....

Merriam Webster Dictionary of Law: "an illegal act of violence, detention, or plunder committed for private ends by crew or passengers of a private ship or aircraft against another ship or aircraft on the high seas or in a place outside the jurisdiction of any state"

Note the bit about outside the jurisdiction of any state. :lol:

By strict definition this makes hijacking of Starships ... grand theft and kidnapping ... not Piracy ... after all, it is made plain that the Imperium claims the space between the stars and there aren't all that many (if any) unclaimed systems within even the Spinward Marches.

QED Piracy does not exist in the 3I, by strict legal definition. Nor does it exist in the Zhodani Consulate. Or the Darrian Confederation. Or the Sword Worlds. Or even the Vargr extents. By strict definition.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

I've been studying historical piracy for a decade or so, rather dogmatically for the last four or so, and I have never heard of this coal theory until now. I'd be delighted if you could point me to some scholarly works on the subject.
Thanks!
I was under the impression that most scholars agree it was the Declaration of Paris of 1856, which put an end to privateering, also put an "end" to privateering's twin sister, "real" piracy.

Buggered if I know where I read it many years ago. As for the Declaration of Paris, of course, it did not "put an end" to privateering. It was merely a gentleman's agreement between some of the main European powers and the US specifically opposed it (or resisted it) and, of course, the Confederacy commissioned a number of Privateers even tho the Union agreed not to do so, and didn't, afaik.

Hague (1907) is generally agreed, I understand, as being the treaty that outlawed privateering.

As for Piracy, it is, by definition, not privateering.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

With the greatest of respect, no.

While I agree that large scale piracy *might* not be common, piracy will be.

With the greatest of respect. No.

Since piracy is defined as happening beyond the jurisdiction of any state that makes the chances of it existing within the Imperium, or even within the Spinward Marches ... exactly zero except in a few uninhabited systems ... not claimed by any state.

I would agree that the occasional attempt at grand larceny and kidnapping probably occurs ... but not on any long term organised basis.

The Imperium claims the space between the stars (Jump Space) and the solar systems beyond COACC orbital space.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

and you don't have "hidden Pirate base worlds" lasting 1100 years and regularly ripping off a massive 1000 world Imperium with scores and hundreds of Trillion Credit Squadrons.

And how those squadrons are supposed to find their target?

Base worlds don't move :shock:

Easy.

In 1100 years even the Imperium can probably find their backside if they have a guidebook and two spare hands :lol:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[far-trader]

...Since piracy is defined as happening beyond the jurisdiction of any state that makes the chances of it existing within the Imperium, or even within the Spinward Marches ... exactly zero except in a few uninhabited systems ... not claimed by any state.

Just nitpicking but it really doesn't help your position when you state "exactly zero" and then note "except in a few" as they are not eqaul.

So even by your own definitions piracy does or could happen. Just not often. I don't think anyone here is saying it would be a constant hazard throughout charted space.

 

[tneva82]

Base worlds don't move :shock:

Yes. Now draw sphere of 6+ parsecs over system. Now send in ships in sublight speeds to search every sector(since there's no such thing as FTL sensors). How long you think that is going to take? How expensive?

How you know in which direction base is supposed to be? And is that 0.2 parsec away? 0.25 parsec away? 0.5 parsec? 0.6 parsec? 1.1 parsec? 1.34 parsec? 5.4 parsec? Don't you realise just how BIG space is?

It's not worth time and cost to find that needle in haystack.

 

[aspqrz]

Base worlds don't move :shock:

Yes. Now draw sphere of 6+ parsecs over system. Now send in ships in sublight speeds to search every sector(since there's no such thing as FTL sensors). How long you think that is going to take? How expensive?

How you know in which direction base is supposed to be? And is that 0.2 parsec away? 0.25 parsec away? 0.5 parsec? 0.6 parsec? 1.1 parsec? 1.34 parsec? 5.4 parsec? Don't you realise just how BIG space is?

It's not worth time and cost to find that needle in haystack.

Hmm. Yes. I know how big space is.

Do you realise that it is irrelevant, since bases, by definition, cannot move? Or, if they can, then they, themselves, need bases?

Since the Pirate is, by definition, tied to the base in a real sense, even if only infrequently (i.e. for a minimum of the mandated once a year major maintenance) ... or, if they take combat damage, much more frequently ... they will narrow down the systems that need to be searched.

And a single Scout Cruiser to each such system should be able to use its passive sensors to detect such a base with little trouble ... and if it disappears, well!

In any case, Pirate bases capable of performing annual maintenance and repairing combat damage are almost certainly on or near a major world, which makes detection not so much a matter of detecting the base, but of using double entry book-keeping and computerised analysis of money flows to detect the anomalies that such bases will generate.

I mean, for a start, even though you can buy Lasers and Missles (even nukes!) on the open market in the imperium, evidently, they'll be serialised and tracked, or, if not, the manufacturers will have to attempt to hide the fact.

And, like Basil Argyros and the purple cloth (mentioned elsewhere), they'll be caught when some Imperial auditor finds the discrepancies in their accounts.

Corruption and decadence may slow this down, somewhat, but Piracy tends to piss people in power off, and they can't all be paid off ... too expensive ... so it can't happen on a large scale for long.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

...Since piracy is defined as happening beyond the jurisdiction of any state that makes the chances of it existing within the Imperium, or even within the Spinward Marches ... exactly zero except in a few uninhabited systems ... not claimed by any state.

Just nitpicking but it really doesn't help your position when you state "exactly zero" and then note "except in a few" as they are not eqaul.

So even by your own definitions piracy does or could happen. Just not often. I don't think anyone here is saying it would be a constant hazard throughout charted space.

I don't have an updated "Spinward Marches" handy, but, from memory, there aren't any unclaimed systems. Ergo, nowhere is "beyond the jurisdiction of any state" ... the quibble was just for form's sake.

Phil

 

[tneva82]

Do you realise that it is irrelevant, since bases, by definition, cannot move? Or, if they can, then they, themselves, need bases?

Who cares about ability or lack of to move since it's virtually impossible to find out. Only way to find it without unreasonable cost and time spent would be to infiltrate it with spy who would send location.

Since the Pirate is, by definition, tied to the base in a real sense, even if only infrequently (i.e. for a minimum of the mandated once a year major maintenance) ... or, if they take combat damage, much more frequently ... they will narrow down the systems that need to be searched.

So they head to their base located between vast empty areas between stars imperium can't locate them for. There's no finger prints left from jump pointing where they went. If it's 2 jumps away the distance grows even further.

And who's speaking about systems? Why not just build the base somewhere which ISN'T such an obvious place as system. Somewhere for which you need co-ordinates to find it.

Take up Sol system. Next find out Alpha centauri. Now go 66% through that line. How you figure out Imperium would be able to locate base located in that spot?

And a single Scout Cruiser to each such system should be able to use its passive sensors to detect such a base with little trouble ... and if it disappears, well!

Feel free to send cruisers searching for systems. Base isn't hidden in any system so you are just wasting tax payers money. I'm sure they are going to love to find out you waste their money by looking for pirate base from locations it isn't ;-)

 

[tneva82]

I don't have an updated "Spinward Marches" handy, but, from memory, there aren't any unclaimed systems. Ergo, nowhere is "beyond the jurisdiction of any state" ... the quibble was just for form's sake.

Phil

Desperate enough now to stretch for words? Why you btw assume definition of piracy is same then as now. Mere existance of space travel and all the vast areas no-one can control would likely lead to change of definitions anyway.

 

[Matrix Cypher]

Um?! I thought this thread was about drawing deckplans? :roll:

 

[aspqrz]

Do you realise that it is irrelevant, since bases, by definition, cannot move? Or, if they can, then they, themselves, need bases?

Who cares about ability or lack of to move since it's virtually impossible to find out. Only way to find it without unreasonable cost and time spent would be to infiltrate it with spy who would send location.

Ah.

You don't have the slightest idea what I said or why it makes what you said completely irrelevant.

Fine.

Everyone else seems to, even if they think Pirates are OK.

But I can't explain it any more simply, so there's no point in attempting to do so.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

I don't have an updated "Spinward Marches" handy, but, from memory, there aren't any unclaimed systems. Ergo, nowhere is "beyond the jurisdiction of any state" ... the quibble was just for form's sake.

Phil

Desperate enough now to stretch for words? Why you btw assume definition of piracy is same then as now. Mere existance of space travel and all the vast areas no-one can control would likely lead to change of definitions anyway.

Nope. Law is very conservative. And anyway, Traveller is a game setting for people who live in a very specific period of time ... the late 20th/early 21st centuries, so, unless the plan was to define "Piracy" as something completely different from the accepted definition as it exists, then they needed to state so, specifically.

Since the Imperium claims extra-orbital space within systems and Jumpspace between imperial systems then there cannot be Piracy in those places, by definition.

The Zhos and Darrians and Sword Worlders presumably adhere to the same sort of dictum ... which means that only in unoccupied and unclaimed systems can there be Piracy.

AFAIK there aren't any in the Spinward Marches.

Phil

 

[tneva82]

You don't have the slightest idea what I said or why it makes what you said completely irrelevant.

You are assuming base has to be over some fixed system. For christ sake we can build bases anywhere even now. Do you seriously think construction abilities are going to DEGRADE in future?

It's hardly a problem to set up base where you want. Pick a spot in map, jump there, build it. Takes time yes but who said everything has to be lightning fast? While they are building base they can be setting up contacts, hooking up bureaucrats so they end up being on their payroll and gathering intelligent on promising targets and whatnot.

End result: You have eminently workable base between vast gulfs in space where Imperium simply cannot locate you by searching without expending more money than pirates cost you.

 

[aspqrz]

You don't have the slightest idea what I said or why it makes what you said completely irrelevant.

You are assuming base has to be over some fixed system. For christ sake we can build bases anywhere even now. Do you seriously think construction abilities are going to DEGRADE in future?

Well. If I believed Traveller Tech, even in MongTrav, I'd have to say "yes".

However, as I said, a mobile base needs support, too ... you can't simply have a complex maintenance facility off in the middle of nowhere without having it be supported from somewhere.

Not many major starport facilities capable of servicing starships for their annual maintenance and fixing battle damage in the middle of nowhere with no backup support.

Spares and personnel have to be shipped in, at the very least, and those facilities, if they are in the middle of nowhere, need maintenance themselves, and that's where the paper trail comes in.

In any case, there's the base personnel. What's the old one? Three people can keep a secret only if two are dead?

You are merely lengthening the paper trail and making it simpler to track things down.

As for the in the middle of nowhere major base, passive sensors will feel it out as it has to have things like fusion power and emission generating machinery.

You won't be able to hide it for long in an inhabited system ... and since uninhabited systems are relatively rare in the Imperium, and you can easily triangulate the likely location(s) from the geographical location of the "hits" ... well, since there is a J6 limit for any ship, the more attacks, the more you can either cover the places that have been hit or the more you can narrow down where the base is.

Of course, if the Pirate never attacks, then they can't track the base down. But that's sort of ... pointless ...

The Imperium has 1000 worlds, sure, but the whole area of space isn't infested with Pirates, only select border areas are likely to be, and that's where the fleets are concentrated.

Since the Imperial borders are long standing, hundreds of years old or more, there aren't going to be any hidden pirate bases that will remain hidden for long for the reasons noted above.

Simple. And I am surprised you find it so difficult to grasp.

If you really want to have Pirates in YTU, fine, whatever floats your spaceship ... but it doesn't make any sense. None at all. And you're fortunate you've never had a surly old curmudgeonly historian like me in your playing group :twisted:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[Infojunky]

Well, this has turned into a pointless discussion.

Phil, cool there are no pirates in your personal Traveller universe, fine that is your Game.

Just as it's ok for those of us who wish include them in ours.

How they work is ok for conversation.

If they exist is just a pointless exercise that has played it self out over and over for the last 20 years.

And to restate some earlier commentary; What was this thread about anyway?

 

[spinwardpirate]

Deckplans!!!
Wooooo!
Post 'em if ya got 'em says I!

 

[Kharum]

where? There isn't a gallery for such things.