Drawing Deckplans

[aspqrz]

Over the past few years I have been pondering some of the design choices made for Free Traders, While I can see a fair number of small (one or two man operations) plying the frontier regions in 200 ton hulls. I can see them having to compete with slightly better capitalized operations operating the tramp routes in 1000-2000 dton ships.

Have any of y'all considered this?

Yep. I have long considered the standard "Free Trader" anomalous given what we can reasonably infer from the layered on post 3 LBB background of the OTU.

If you could convert displacement tons in Traveller into grt for seagoing ships I suspect that the reality is that most coasters are even larger (maybe c. 5000 grt) and Tramps of the sort that the FT is supposed to represent would be more along the line of such.

(Checking out the most recent charters available for Tramp Steamers at http://www.searates.com/tramp/ the average for the General Cargo ships shown is c. 10ktons, for example.

Or you could look at http://tramp.westlinkshipping.com/ which runs two vessels of 3658 and 6280 dwt respectively, which would seem like a better example, perhaps).

I suppose it depends on whether you see spacecraft in the 3I more in terms of Aircraft or more in terms of Cargo Ships.

Of course, I will, undoubtedly, be burnt in effigy as a heretic against canon ... alongside your good self, obviously ... for having the sheer temerity to do so :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[spinwardpirate]

Philosophy of Ship Design

This was the original point I was alluding to - a lot of the deckplans as they exist make no economic sense based on real world merchant ship design.

Well, it's not the Real World, so I wouldn't expect them to. It's a Game World, and some of the assumptions (heck, maybe ALL of them) don't make any sense. That's where imagination comes in. If things don't make sense, make up something that will justify those things. Having said that...

As for class and starship design... hey! I agree! It's even canon! Read the description of the Gazelle from Traders and Gunboats.

An important aspect of the ship is its interior layout; the ship was designed at a time when mutinies were a major threat to security. As a result, major bulkheads break up the ship into distinct areas — some for crew members, some for officers, and some common to both.

An anti-piracy ship, specially-designed to keep mutinous crew from easily taking the ship.

 

[zozotroll]

In MonT the pilot is supposed to make 3 times the pay of a common spacer. Was not the pay difference much steeper in the great age of tramps? Certainly it was greater in the age of sail.

If so then once again we have a canon inconsistancy( imagine that) over pay and social class. So you can take your pick as to which way it goes.

Anybody ever think it was writen just to be a fun game and not meant to be detail anilyzed like we do? It should have been however, as it was written by a wargamers company and wargamers alway subject every game to intense examination. And dont we all have tremendous fun digging in and arguing about it all>

 

[spinwardpirate]

Agreed. Especially since it is open to interpretation, and there isn't any real right or wrong.

 

[klingsor]

Tramp steamers would appear to be the perfect comparison for the smaller starships in Traveller (leaving out the drink and religion) especially considering the historical inclinations of the original authors. More importantly it also saves having to make things up! I know I have the nautical analogy firmly in mind when approaching starships in almost any game as I suspect most authors do as well.

 

[Captain Brann]

Hi
To get to the topic of drawing Deckplans.

I have got my first set of the rules and have never played before.

If a Dton = 14cubic meters which is about 3x3x1.5m. How much of this for each component is taken up by corridors and such like.
How much of a stateroom is used for common area's and corridors.

How much of anything is used for air and food supplies?

A modern cargo container is appx 6m long; by 2.5m Sq; = around 3 Dton. but this means that you need cargo handling equpment in the cargo bay, space to move around and big doors to load/unload. Is this taken into account in the cost of transport at 1kcr per Dton?

Do containers use gravity tech to aid movement and storage? and if so how much are they worth?


Sorry for the ramble but I am trying to get my head around the idea of space in starships and operating them.

Chris

 

[Zowy]

Hi
To get to the topic of drawing Deckplans.

I have got my first set of the rules and have never played before.

If a Dton = 14cubic meters which is about 3x3x1.5m. How much of this for each component is taken up by corridors and such like.
How much of a stateroom is used for common area's and corridors.

How much of anything is used for air and food supplies?

A modern cargo container is appx 6m long; by 2.5m Sq; = around 3 Dton. but this means that you need cargo handling equpment in the cargo bay, space to move around and big doors to load/unload. Is this taken into account in the cost of transport at 1kcr per Dton?

Do containers use gravity tech to aid movement and storage? and if so how much are they worth?


Sorry for the ramble but I am trying to get my head around the idea of space in starships and operating them.

Chris

Depending on if you have freshers in each stateroom or shared ones. Most deckplanes have 1/2 to 3/4 as room space and the rest as common areas. Allso around 1/2 a meter of you 3M height is taken up by in decking runs for power / lifesupport / graveplates / ect. Your bridge tonnage includes some extra stuff like landing gear and your main airlock.

You can trun the cargo deck Gravplates off or even reverse them to help with cargo handleing. It is assumed you have built-in tiedown points / straping / loadlock bars / ect. For large containerized cargo a "forklift" or cargobot of some kind will come in handy. Cargo on pallets, could be moved with simple manual palletjacks if needed, but powered ones would be faster. If you want a cargo "airlock" just cut your cagro space up with an extra hatch.

 

[simonh]

If a Dton = 14cubic meters which is about 3x3x1.5m. How much of this for each component is taken up by corridors and such like.
How much of a stateroom is used for common area's and corridors.

Traditionaly it's been assumed that each deck is 3m high including inter-deck space, and each deck plan square is 1.5m by 1.5m or half a dton. The Mongoose main book uses a 1sq equals 1dton system but I understand this is being revised. engineering systems should take up their rated space, perhaps including some space for engineering access corridors and workspace, I'd say about 10%. The 4dtons for staterooms is usually 3 dtons for the actual stateroom and the remaining dton towards corridors and common areas.

How much of anything is used for air and food supplies?

That's really 'fudge factor' space.

A modern cargo container is appx 6m long; by 2.5m Sq; = around 3 Dton. but this means that you need cargo handling equpment in the cargo bay, space to move around and big doors to load/unload. Is this taken into account in the cost of transport at 1kcr per Dton?

Not usualy, you put in the rated space and that's it. I do assume that the crew will have compact gravitic platforms for moving around cargo and that a few are available depending on hold space.

The rule of thumb is that you have around 10% wiggle room when designing deck plans. So long as each component (engines, power plant, accommodation spaces, cargo space) are within 10% of the theoretical amount that's fine.

Personally I'm mainly concerned that the deck plans appear functional and useful for gaming, but there are plenty of people out there that make a point of counting every square and getting out a calculator. (I wonder how many of them actually work on deck plans themselves).

Simon Hibbs

 

[Captain Brann]

If a Dton = 14cubic meters which is about 3x3x1.5m. How much of this for each component is taken up by corridors and such like.
How much of a stateroom is used for common area's and corridors.

Traditionaly it's been assumed that each deck is 3m high including inter-deck space, and each deck plan square is 1.5m by 1.5m or half a dton. The Mongoose main book uses a 1sq equals 1dton system but I understand this is being revised. engineering systems should take up their rated space, perhaps including some space for engineering access corridors and workspace, I'd say about 10%. The 4dtons for staterooms is usually 3 dtons for the actual stateroom and the remaining dton towards corridors and common areas.

How much of anything is used for air and food supplies?

That's really 'fudge factor' space.

A modern cargo container is appx 6m long; by 2.5m Sq; = around 3 Dton. but this means that you need cargo handling equpment in the cargo bay, space to move around and big doors to load/unload. Is this taken into account in the cost of transport at 1kcr per Dton?

Not usualy, you put in the rated space and that's it. I do assume that the crew will have compact gravitic platforms for moving around cargo and that a few are available depending on hold space.

The rule of thumb is that you have around 10% wiggle room when designing deck plans. So long as each component (engines, power plant, accommodation spaces, cargo space) are within 10% of the theoretical amount that's fine.

Personally I'm mainly concerned that the deck plans appear functional and useful for gaming, but there are plenty of people out there that make a point of counting every square and getting out a calculator. (I wonder how many of them actually work on deck plans themselves).

Simon Hibbs

Thank you and Zowy for your reply and help.
I want to create ships plans for playing which are functional and useful but wanted to work out how much space was around for crawl spaces etc. The 10% will help with this.

Thank you again.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

From the plans I've tried to put together, I've usually found that making the staterooms about 2dtons, and using the other 2dtons for passageways and commons spaces has typically worked best for me, though I usually like to include spaces like a small galley, laundry, and sometimes a deck head (common fresher), etc in my plans.

With respect to area/volumes for food and stores etc, I have some data on what is sometimes used on modern ship design, that I can try and dig up maybe later, if it is of any interest.

Regards

PF

 

[Infojunky]

With respect to area/volumes for food and stores etc, I have some data on what is sometimes used on modern ship design, that I can try and dig up maybe later, if it is of any interest.

From an old Journal Marc said Cr1000 and 200 kg is the minimum for life-support per person per 2 week period.

So figure volume at around 300 liters min per person.

 

[simonh]

From the plans I've tried to put together, I've usually found that making the staterooms about 2dtons, and using the other 2dtons for passageways and commons spaces has typically worked best for me, though I usually like to include spaces like a small galley, laundry, and sometimes a deck head (common fresher), etc in my plans.

You'll probably find that your space budget for small ships is quite constrained because common spaces take up a larger proportion of the 'stateroom' space. In larger vessels this becomes less of a problem. On the 1000 dton vessel I'm working on now I can afford 3 dton cabins and still have a reasonable amount of stateroom space left over for common areas and corridors.

Then again, 20 dtons of bridge is a bit excessive on a 100 dton ship so I tend to 'steal' a bit of that for other parts of the inhabited space.

Simon Hibbs

 

[PFVA63]

You'll probably find that your space budget for small ships is quite constrained because common spaces take up a larger proportion of the 'stateroom' space. In larger vessels this becomes less of a problem. On the 1000 dton vessel I'm working on now I can afford 3 dton cabins and still have a reasonable amount of stateroom space left over for common areas and corridors.

Then again, 20 dtons of bridge is a bit excessive on a 100 dton ship so I tend to 'steal' a bit of that for other parts of the inhabited space.

Simon Hibbs

Hi,

Yeah, I guess you're probably right about the bigger ships. Thanks for the input.

Regards

PF

 

[Mithras]

Does anyone have any idea where I could find the deckplans for a Traveller space station/base. Preferably on a world, such as a small mining installation or science lab, but a space based one would do. (Just not the horrible 'one-long-corridor' Lab Ship!).

Cheers!

 

[RandyT0001]

Does anyone have any idea where I could find the deckplans for a Traveller space station/base. Preferably on a world, such as a small mining installation or science lab, but a space based one would do. (Just not the horrible 'one-long-corridor' Lab Ship!).

I could send you a unkeyed copy of 'The School' plans I got in png or jpg format. You just key it like you want. It's a 50ft tall, steel rebar reinforced, 1m thick concrete dome building with four levels. Ground floor is about 140 feet in diameter. Could be used as some sort of science lab or mining installation.

Or you could look for floorplans of labs online like at universities or government facalities.

 

[-Daniel-]

I could send you a unkeyed copy of 'The School' plans I got in png or jpg format. You just key it like you want. It's a 50ft tall, steel rebar reinforced, 1m thick concrete dome building with four levels. Ground floor is about 140 feet in diameter. Could be used as some sort of science lab or mining installation.

I would not mind a copy of that if you are sending them out. :wink:

Daniel

 

[GypsyComet]

This site (and others like it) may be mined for Traveller quite readily.

http://www.domeincorporated.com/dome-home-plans.html

http://www.domesnorthwest.com/Floor%20PLans.htm

 

[-Daniel-]

This site (and others like it) may be mined for Traveller quite readily.

http://www.domeincorporated.com/dome-home-plans.html

http://www.domesnorthwest.com/Floor%20PLans.htm

Good sites.

One of the best buys I ever made for my TW2K and Spy games was a simple book of floor plans I found at the local food market. The plans were simple drawing and they wanted you to buy from them the real blue prints. But for what I needed as a gamer, they were fine. Each page had a floor plan and a front view drawing. Great tool.

Daniel

 

[Infojunky]

There is a Yahoo Group devoted to the creation of deckplans, if anybody is interested.

 

[SSWarlock]

Does anyone have any idea where I could find the deckplans for a Traveller space station/base. Preferably on a world, such as a small mining installation or science lab, but a space based one would do. (Just not the horrible 'one-long-corridor' Lab Ship!).

Cheers!

Mithras, there may be something useful here..

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints-main2.php