spinwardpirate
Mongoose
Last time I looked, piracy is alive and kicking, both in the real world, and in the OTU.aspqrz said:
Drawing Deckplans
- Thread starter klingsor
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spinwardpirate
Mongoose
Mostly, making everything fit. I like to have the tonnage total and the number of squares come out as close as possible. If the thing looks nice when I'm done, that's even better!klingsor said:
tneva82 said:
Sorry. No.
You may "know" that FTL travel is impossible ... the rest of us, well, we might believe that, based on our current understanding of science, it isn't.
Which isn't the same.
Not by a long shot.
One is a physical principle that we have chosen to believe is possible whether it is or isn't.
The other is a logical consequence of the Imperium's structure and core reason for being.
The fact that the designers included it because, frankly, they layered on a whole lot of things to the original 3 LBB that, separately, may have seemed "cool" but which, in reality, when combined ... make no sense at all ... isn't a recommendation.
Or need I invoke the "rocks at C" argument from the old TML as reductio ad absurdum?
They're Canon, too.
Canon doesn't require anyone stop thinking for themselves when faced with a logical conundrum :shock:
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
tneva82 said:
Nope. It's just 1100 years old. And has vast manpower and numberless fleets. And time to apply them.
And computers to track cash flow and "restricted" parts ... like avionics or spacecraft grade fusion.
There's a wonderful segment in Harry Turtledove's "Agent of Byzantium" stories where Basil Argyros, a Magistrianoi (Imperial Investigator) starts the story by just having broken up a plot to smuggle purple dyed garments to some Frankish kinglet, when purple is restricted to the Emperor!
How does he do it. He self deprecatingly notes that he did it by noticing a discrepancy in the silk dyer's accounts ...
The goods have to be fenced. Which leaves a physical and a paper trail. The ships have to be built, maintained and repaired, and that leaves a paper trail.
The Imperium is not, not even vaguely a facsimile of a most unmapped and unexplored earth of the Age of Sail.
For piracy to be viable you have to be able to build the ship and not bring down the wrath of an angry imperium down on you when, eventually, they stumble across you ... and they will ... paper trails and computers, and the Imperial Navy ... no, Piracy simply makes no economic, historical, or practical, sense, canon or no canon.
Not with the corner that the OTU has painted itself into.
Sure, some of the original assumptions behind the 3 LBB, as much as you can glean from the minimalist background in then, might be stretched to allow as how Piracy is possible ... but with all the layered on afterthoughts, well, no, it isn't.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
Talon Brightmane said:
With the greatest of respect, no.
The Imperium has defined borders with several major interstellar states and along these borders both parties have a real interest in preventing piracy ... commerce raiding, maybe not (but that leads to war, pretty much).
The Spinward marches is not really a marches area in the sense you are implying ... it is an area of interstection between two major interstellar powers ... the Zhos and the Imperium. They've fought wars a number of times and it is that possibility that is what most merchantmen will be afraid of ... and its a possibility they can (realistically) do nothing about ... unless it starts off with commerce raiding.
Which isn't piracy.
The Sword Worlders and the Darrians, theoretically, might be seen as bases for Piracy, except neither state (no, not even the Sword Worlders) are that ... unutterably stupid ... they would have been gobbled up long ago if they played silly buggers like piracy against the Imperium or against the Zhos.
Independent worlds? Same problem, and more of a pushover.
The only place you might get something on a large enough scale to resemble piracy is along the border with the Vargr extents ... and I never could see that the Imperium wouldn't have used severe gunboat diplomacy against the Vargr to let them know that there were easier targets, no matter what the charismatic new id ... er ... usurper ... said.
It simply doesn't make sense because, ultimately, the base world and the suppliers and fences for the Pirates will be discovered and destroyed. And the "lesson" will be harsh enough so that not too many people will be dumb enough or desperate enough to try it again any time soon.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
spinwardpirate said:
You might read the original post in its entirety.
I noted the "pirates" in speedboats off Somalia and in the Malacca straits.
One exists because there is no local government capable of suppressing them and, as soon as there is, they will be. The other exists because the existing local government is too corrupt/incompetent to suppress them because they are such small fry.
They certainly don't have heavily armed warships resembling FACs or Corvettes, which, allegedly, exist in Traveller (and, of course, you get a Bank Loan to own them, sorta :twisted
You have the equivalent of a Shuttle or, more like, a Lifeboat, boarding ships as they pass through a choke point, and carrying off cash and portable valuables. Banditry, not piracy.
The armament some frontier merchant craft might carry is for the nonexistent unexplored worlds (which essentially don't exist in the OTU Spinward Marches, for example, or shouldn't) or because they're smugglers and want to fight off customs craft (yeah, right, pull the other one, it plays "jingle bells" :lol
or, possibly, for member worlds that have less than stable local governments.In fact, that's really the only sort of "piracy" you would have ... local rogue governments ... probably in a balkanised world or a civil war situation ... trying to confiscate merchantmen breaking their version of what they claim the local laws are. Not Piracy at all. Not really.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
I have danced this dance many times.
Basicly Phil is right, if you apply history and logic to it, wide spread piracy doesnt work. So change the picture to get a different result.
Traveller is flexible. No reason at all you have to play at the latest point in time. play at the end of the lnog night, then there is no 1100 years of imperial piracy suppresion. And most likely there are not scores of bored trillion credit squadrons out there looking for a bit of live fire practice.
I was wondering when we would get into this. I accidently touched one off on the GT board a few years ago that was over 20 pages long when I dropped out. If we want to thrash pirates, and who doesnt love pirates in space, how about its own thread, instead of hideing in a deckplan thread.
But leave the plasma throwers at home.
Owen
Basicly Phil is right, if you apply history and logic to it, wide spread piracy doesnt work. So change the picture to get a different result.
Traveller is flexible. No reason at all you have to play at the latest point in time. play at the end of the lnog night, then there is no 1100 years of imperial piracy suppresion. And most likely there are not scores of bored trillion credit squadrons out there looking for a bit of live fire practice.
I was wondering when we would get into this. I accidently touched one off on the GT board a few years ago that was over 20 pages long when I dropped out. If we want to thrash pirates, and who doesnt love pirates in space, how about its own thread, instead of hideing in a deckplan thread.
But leave the plasma throwers at home.
Owen
aspqrz said:
On same logic YOU can't know piracy in far future can't work. What with essentially free and easily collected fuel available rendering coal issue to moot point combined with ease on how to hide base(I mean is the base 1 parsec away? 2 parcec? 0.5 parce? 0.7 parcec? Plenty of places to hide. Oh and which direction).
Oh and nevermind pirates do exist these days. I requlary notice news of pirate attacks and I'm not even looking for those...
YOU might believe it doesn't work based on "fact" piracy is dead(eventhough it still survives. Check your facts!!!) but that doesn't make it fact.
aspqrz said:
And can't control far places efficiently. What with all this non-FTL communication and what not. Have you forgotten that goverment is essentially in hands of LOCAL goverments? The Imperium is more of set of guide lines. No centralised goverment could work when it would take months(years?) to get bloody message from one corner to other.
And there's this handy thing called bribery. Last time I checked traveller isn't utopia where humans have evolved into superior beings.
How to come down on them when you have no idea where they are. Next you are claiming jumping ships leave finger prints pinpointing location :lol:
zozotroll said:
Ok, some basic numbers here from the real work in 2003 there 455 reported piracy incidents according to ICC International Maritime Bureau (IMB) which runs the IMB Piracy Reporting Centre. With this in hand figure 50000 vessels in commercial trade (this is an composite estimate from several overlapping sources) this gives us a 0.91% > less than one percent. Now translate this back a specific ship, the average ship will be involved in a piracy incident maybe once every 100 years or so.
Further examination shows that Piracy exists in specific regions for the most part. Southeast Asia being the by far bigest hot spot. Why, lots of reasons, lots of small islands to operate from, lots of shipping throughout the region and a culture of sea robbery that over 1000 years old.
Translate this in the Traveller terms we find that piracy will exist in a region where opportunity exists, this area will change as enforcement/local condition fluctuate, i.e. the growing number of incidents off of East Africa.
Note in no way did I invoke technology will end this argument, as piracy is a set of opportunities not a technology.
zozotroll said:
Bing, Give the man a cigar.
zozotroll said:
I seriously thought about posting the traditional flame wars of the TML here as a list of topics that get hot. Then I figured I would hang out and smack the traditional combatants when they show up, politely, as we are a small community and well y'all know how we get.
Short list, Female aslan, Near-C rocks, Sensor efficiency (this one shows up in a lot of different threads), Economics of the Imperium, and a few more that I don't remember. If these topics show up be warned lots of people have vastly different opinions of what they are in Traveller, no matter what was actually written.
Check. Setting my phasers on Annoy captain.zozotroll said:
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
If you apply too much logic to the 3I, especially economically, then it unravels.
Free Traders shouldn't really exist either. Given the economic set up running a free trader is such a marginal and downright risky proposition that only a handful will try. Problem here is that the designs assume such vessels are common. In reality, only the megacorps could make a profit using giant superfreighters. Either that or the Imperium has to subsidise all independent trade.
But free traders are cool, and so are pirates. In fact, given the set up, piracy would be more common than independent traders.
As far as deckplans are concerned, my first principle is that they should be interesting. There should be nooks and crannies, alternative routes from one side to the other, idiosyncratic designs.
That's why I like the old Type-S so much. It may be a bit oversize, and not quite easy to fit into its stated shape and size, but for such a tiny ship it is very interesting.
Too many Traveller deckplans are too efficient.
And, there's never enough airlocks.
What are the primary uses for deckplans?
Either as 'dungeons': exploring derelicts and such like.
Or as the venue for boarding actions or hijacking attempts.
I reckon they need to be good for that before we worry about them being exactly 2-times-tonnage-in-1.5m-squares.
At the very least, there should be at least 2 routes from the engine room to the bridge, and 3 exits to every bulkhead/compartment. Either that or we add crawlspace/Jeffries tube type stuff.
Free Traders shouldn't really exist either. Given the economic set up running a free trader is such a marginal and downright risky proposition that only a handful will try. Problem here is that the designs assume such vessels are common. In reality, only the megacorps could make a profit using giant superfreighters. Either that or the Imperium has to subsidise all independent trade.
But free traders are cool, and so are pirates. In fact, given the set up, piracy would be more common than independent traders.
As far as deckplans are concerned, my first principle is that they should be interesting. There should be nooks and crannies, alternative routes from one side to the other, idiosyncratic designs.
That's why I like the old Type-S so much. It may be a bit oversize, and not quite easy to fit into its stated shape and size, but for such a tiny ship it is very interesting.
Too many Traveller deckplans are too efficient.
And, there's never enough airlocks.
What are the primary uses for deckplans?
Either as 'dungeons': exploring derelicts and such like.
Or as the venue for boarding actions or hijacking attempts.
I reckon they need to be good for that before we worry about them being exactly 2-times-tonnage-in-1.5m-squares.
At the very least, there should be at least 2 routes from the engine room to the bridge, and 3 exits to every bulkhead/compartment. Either that or we add crawlspace/Jeffries tube type stuff.
Klaus Kipling said:
I'd go as far as to say "If you apply any logic to the classic 3I then it unravels" ... piracy, as such, only made sense (and then, mainly as commerce raiding) in Megatraveller (the background of which I didn't much like, but which was still better than the virus spawned idiocy of later backgrounds :twisted
.As with technology, the problem was that the 3 LBB had virtually no background and the Imperium was layered on them with, it seems obvious in retrospect, no real thought beyond isn't this a kewel idea almost ... and GDW was a historical games company at its base, which makes that ... confounding ... to some of us who remember that.
If people want to design merchants that supposedly represent empire wide designs that make no economic sense on an empire wide basis, fine ... I just reserve the right to bitch and moan about it from time to time :lol:
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
tneva82 said:
As I noted elsewhere, "piracy" still exists ... on the margins. Where you have, effectively, no government to suppress it (Somalia) or a corrupt and generally incompetent government that doesn't care because its so small scale (Indonesia, mainly) ... and even then its on a scale of speedboats and guys armed with AK-47s (if that).
What you don't have is heavily armed warships in all but name engaging in large scale actions on the high seas.
So, if by "Piracy" you mean a dozen guys with small arms on board a Ship's Boat lurking in a gas giant and waiting for an unsuspecting merchanter to board ... in a system with a nonexistent local government ... then, yes, it probably exists on a tiny scale ... but as an empire wide problem of heavily armed warships in all but name? Nope.
The reason Piracy of the "real" sort no longer exists, and cannot exist, was, originally, the coal issue ... it simply wasn't available except at regularised depots as I noted ... but, as I also noted, ultimately it is the basing issue.
All ships, including the mythical pirate, need maintenance and support ... which needs a Starport on a High Tech world ... and you don't have "hidden Pirate base worlds" lasting 1100 years and regularly ripping off a massive 1000 world Imperium with scores and hundreds of Trillion Credit Squadrons.
This isn't a matter of belief, it is a matter of historical record in the only example we know of ... and the reasons are not debatable, they are inevitable fact.
So, unless your ship is travelling past the Imperial equivalent of Somalia or through the Imperial equivalent of the Malacca straits, then there isn't any need for anti-Pirate measures.
Note: AIUI most significant merchantmen passing near Somalia/through Malacca, "repel" Pirates by the simple expedient of locking all the bulkhead doors leading to the main superstructure. The Pirates don't have acetylene torches and simply cannot break through the heavy steel doors if they're secured.
In fact, AIUI, they even have trouble getting over the side of the big merchies unless someone has stupidly left some ropes dangling off them for the pirates to climb up.
But if you wish to believe that Pirates are possible in the classic 3I, fine, believe what you want even if it makes no economic sense whatsoever ... just expect the occasional surly old curmudgeon who knows enough history and economics to know better to call you on it from time to time :lol:
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
spinwardpirate
Mongoose
I've been studying historical piracy for a decade or so, rather dogmatically for the last four or so, and I have never heard of this coal theory until now. I'd be delighted if you could point me to some scholarly works on the subject.aspqrz said:
Thanks!
I was under the impression that most scholars agree it was the Declaration of Paris of 1856, which put an end to privateering, also put an "end" to privateering's twin sister, "real" piracy.
I have to disagree...piracy will happen.
If someone can make money off it..it will be done. All that is required is that someone feel the prize is worth the risk.
Piracy is robbery at sea or in similar contexts. Modern useage also includes aircraft. If it can be accepted that this also includes robbery of a vehicle...even car-jackings could be considered a form of piracy.
It stands to reason that robbery in space will occur when space travel is as common as in the OTU. I'd say that space piracy is similar in context to sea piracy.
( robbing someone of $100 during a fishing tournament in their bass boat counts as piracy...funny eh? )
The risk is great...the Imperium is sure to take a dim view of piracy PROVIDED it significantly affects INTERSTELLAR trade. Whether or not the Imperium worries about in-system trade depends on individual refs, I suppose and how those refs handle juristiction. But then the payoff can be great ( if the victims are stupid )
Those trillion credit squadrons will not be deployed as specific anti-piracy patrols unless the cost to deploy them is less than what they are willing to pay to get rid of piracy. A batron won't be sent to a system over a semi-monthly ship being attacked...maybe local system defense (coast guard) will handle it...with sdb's...not with battleships. The Imperium will not spend trillions to git rid of a problem that costs only millions in losses. It becomes a game of brinkmanship...how much can be stolen before the heavy hitters get put into action?
The Imperium does not get involved in wars..or trade wars between mega-corps unless interstellar trade is significantly affected. Letters of marque can be had...but if things get out of hand, the issuer of that letter of marque will have to answer for it. Much 'piracy' will be attacks in trade wars....perhaps the Mega-corps involved will use political influence to get the Imperium to hold off its action for a few months...maybe not get involved at all so long as the overall trade losses are not too great.
so piracy will happen....just not in the 'jolly-roger, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum' form that so many joke of.
If for no other reason...in game terms, its an excuse for honest small time ships to mount serious military hardware ( should free traders really need triple missle turrets and dedicated gunners?..)
If someone can make money off it..it will be done. All that is required is that someone feel the prize is worth the risk.
Piracy is robbery at sea or in similar contexts. Modern useage also includes aircraft. If it can be accepted that this also includes robbery of a vehicle...even car-jackings could be considered a form of piracy.
It stands to reason that robbery in space will occur when space travel is as common as in the OTU. I'd say that space piracy is similar in context to sea piracy.
( robbing someone of $100 during a fishing tournament in their bass boat counts as piracy...funny eh? )
The risk is great...the Imperium is sure to take a dim view of piracy PROVIDED it significantly affects INTERSTELLAR trade. Whether or not the Imperium worries about in-system trade depends on individual refs, I suppose and how those refs handle juristiction. But then the payoff can be great ( if the victims are stupid )
Those trillion credit squadrons will not be deployed as specific anti-piracy patrols unless the cost to deploy them is less than what they are willing to pay to get rid of piracy. A batron won't be sent to a system over a semi-monthly ship being attacked...maybe local system defense (coast guard) will handle it...with sdb's...not with battleships. The Imperium will not spend trillions to git rid of a problem that costs only millions in losses. It becomes a game of brinkmanship...how much can be stolen before the heavy hitters get put into action?
The Imperium does not get involved in wars..or trade wars between mega-corps unless interstellar trade is significantly affected. Letters of marque can be had...but if things get out of hand, the issuer of that letter of marque will have to answer for it. Much 'piracy' will be attacks in trade wars....perhaps the Mega-corps involved will use political influence to get the Imperium to hold off its action for a few months...maybe not get involved at all so long as the overall trade losses are not too great.
so piracy will happen....just not in the 'jolly-roger, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum' form that so many joke of.
If for no other reason...in game terms, its an excuse for honest small time ships to mount serious military hardware ( should free traders really need triple missle turrets and dedicated gunners?..)
Talon Brightmane
Mongoose
aspqrz said:
While I agree that large scale piracy *might* not be common, piracy will be. It will be small scale operations that are scattered about and likely moble. Independant opperators, if you will.
The lack of quick and effective communication and quick response time allows for this. I also content that not every sector of space is going to be heavily patrolled, let alone every parsec. If anything, I see piracy in traveller more closely mirroring a train robbery then what was common in the age of sail. It will be a planned attack looking for a specific score and probably based on what high value shippments are needed by a given world.
I agree that piracy in some form will be present. I suppose what I am not seeing as likely is long term successful piracy. Sure, people try stupid things all the time. But that doesnt mean they will be good at it.
For every Drake, there is probably a hundred dead dummys that nobody remebers.
For every Drake, there is probably a hundred dead dummys that nobody remebers.
Klaus Kipling said:
I think that the price of energy is too inflated for the traveler universe. In my games I tend to treat the price of fuel as almost trivial. The costs come in ship maintenance and risk.
Also IMTU ships last a long time. Hulls are built to last centuries, and engines ussually last at least 50 years higher for bigger ships. There are ships in the grand fleet that served previous imperiums.
Basically Phil is, without doubt, correct. OTOH, you can find places that allow for traditional canon piracy outside of 3I space. _IF_ I am ever able to actually run Traveller again, it will be set in Reavers Deep as that location allows for many things that the Marches does not. 20 world polities stuck between giants are the dream of most GMs... 
You can play in the OTU and not have anything that even the most hardened grognard expects if you use even a bit of thought. That is why the still OTU survives after 30 some years.
William
You can play in the OTU and not have anything that even the most hardened grognard expects if you use even a bit of thought. That is why the still OTU survives after 30 some years.
William