Dodge

[Wulf Corbett]

I like the analogy Wulf.

It's close to my heart.

Wulf

 

[Commador Q]

But those initial hits or misses occur whether or not the ship has dodge. The part that confuses me is that dodge causes the net effect of a miss. But because the miss was caused by a dodge roll instead of a missed initial hit roll, Twin-Linked and CAF don't get to re-roll but beams DO get to re-roll. That doesn't make sense. A miss is a miss.

The bolt, energy ball, burst, or whatever from a Twin-Linked weapon has passed the target by when it dodges. There's nothing else coming. When the target dodges the beam, the firing ship is still firing, and can correct the beam's aim to have another go. It's the difference between throwing a brick at someone or having a go at him with a stick. You only get one throw, but all the swipes you want.

Wulf

wow, when i read that i had a vision of somone standing on the top of their house swinging a stick at a miniature White Star.

 

[lastbesthope]

ISA Piñata anyone?

:lol:

LBH

 

[captainsmirk]

But those initial hits or misses occur whether or not the ship has dodge. The part that confuses me is that dodge causes the net effect of a miss. But because the miss was caused by a dodge roll instead of a missed initial hit roll, Twin-Linked and CAF don't get to re-roll but beams DO get to re-roll. That doesn't make sense. A miss is a miss.

Wait have we got this right, I always thought that you got to re-roll for Twin-linked and CAF for when you miss and then when you worked out your total number of hits the target gets to roll for dodge? Have I got that wrong?

Nick

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Wait have we got this right, I always thought that you got to re-roll for Twin-linked and CAF for when you miss and then when you worked out your total number of hits the target gets to roll for dodge? Have I got that wrong?

You are entirely correct. Dodge is only rolled AFTER all hits from that weapon system have been determined.

Wulf

 

[captainsmirk]

I think Tzarevitch had got the wrong idea from some of the earlier posts and thought that Dodge somehow cancelled out the re-rolls from T_L and CAF.

Hope that clears that up.

Nick

 

[Tzarevitch]

I think I had it correctly the first time. Here are the relevant rules from the revised edition of ACtA, Book 1.

ACtA Book 1, p.16:
Dodge X: Some Ships (notably fighters or the legendary White Star) are exceptionally nimble and can make sudden, violent movements to thwart attack. Whenever the ship suffers a hit, roll one die. If the die equals or exceeds the Dodge score listed for the ship, all effects of the attack are ignored. The ship has literally dodged the attack.

ActA Book 1, p18:
Beam: Beam weapons have gained a legendary status in the galaxy and all races have tried to develop effective ones, although not all succeed. If an Attack Die from this weapon successfully strikes a target, immediately re-roll to attack again - the target number this time, however will be one higher than before. You may continue to re-roll every Attack Die that continues to hit the target, with a target number one higher than previously used, until you run out of Attack Dice.

ActA Book 1, p18:
Twin-Linked: These weapons are mounted in pairs or even quads, concentrating firepower available on each hardpoint or turret system. The hail of fire these weapon systems unleash is awesome to behold and very difficult to avoid. Any Attack Dice for this weapon that do not successfully strike their target may be re-rolled.

Reading these rules together seems to say:

If Beam Weapon:
1) Roll to hit with each die. "Whenever the ship suffers a hit, roll one die. If the die roll equals or exceeds the dodge score listed for the ship, all effects of the attack are ignored."

So if the ship dodges, the hit is no longer a hit and "all further effects of the attack are ignored." (I.e. It is as if the hit did not happen and you do not re-roll the beam's attack die to see if you inflict more damage per the beam rules.)

If the ship fails to dodge, roll the attack die again with a target number 1 higher. If the die hits. Repeat the dodge procedure. If the target dodges. All further effects of the hit are ignored. You keep the original hit but the beam cascade stops because the second hit was dodged.


If Twin-Linked Weapon:
1) Roll to hit with each die. "Whenever the ship suffers a hit, roll one die. If the die roll equals or exceeds the dodge score listed for the ship, all effects of the attack are ignored."

So if the target dodges, the hit did not happen. "Any Attack Dice for this weapon that do not successfully strike their target may be re-rolled," per the twin-link rule.

Based on the text of the rule it seems clear. Dodge is rolled right after the attack die is rolled (not at the end of the netire attack as is commonly done) and if the dodge is successful it cancels the effect of the hit.

Beams do not roll for extra damage because the original hit did not happen. Twin-link does re-roll dodged attack dice for the same reason, beause the original hit did not happen. The ship then gets to roll dodge again against the re-roll to see if it can dodge that one too.

Dodge with regard to CAF is a little less clear because the CAF rule says that the attack must "miss" and it is unclear that a dodged attack is a "miss". By strict reading, "all effects of the attack are ignored" is not the same thing as a "miss". Plain, common usage however, would indicate that "all effects of the attack are ignored", is the same as "miss."

Tzarevitch

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I think I had it correctly the first time. Here are the relevant rules from the revised edition of ACtA, Book 1.

Regardless, the rule is, roll all hits first, then roll Dodges. That's how it's always been, that's how it's been ruled on a dozen times. Ask anyone who's been at a Mongoose Tournament how it was done there. Houserule how you like, naturally, but the rule has always been, roll all your hits, then dodge.

Wulf

 

[katadder]

its as wulf says but even by your idea tzarevitch the twin linked wouldnt get a reroll as the dodge doesnt make it a miss it negates the actual attack. but thats besides the point. if we played your rules whitestars would just get even harder as the main weapons that take them down are the DD weapons, usually beams.

 

[Greg Smith]

Actually you can read it both ways.

Both beam and dodge essentially say: if you hit, roll again for further effect. By the strict letter of the rules, neither says which follow-on effect comes first.

It has long been ruled that you roll all hits then all dodges.

 

[Voronesh]

Yer first you rolla ll hits for damage, then dodge.

First you roll all offensive stuff, including Twinlinked and beam.
Then do you roll and check for defensive stuff like interceptors, dodge, AA and GEG.

Theres no passing the dice back and forth between the players.

 

[captainsmirk]

ActA Book 1, p18:
Beam: Beam weapons have gained a legendary status in the galaxy and all races have tried to develop effective ones, although not all succeed. If an Attack Die from this weapon successfully strikes a target, immediately re-roll to attack again - the target number this time, however will be one higher than before. You may continue to re-roll every Attack Die that continues to hit the target, with a target number one higher than previously used, until you run out of Attack Dice.

Well it says to re-roll for the Beam Immediately which it doesn't for the dodge, so even if it did work this way (which it doesn't, see previous posts) the Beam would still get a re-roll, even if Twin-linked doesn't.

Nick

 

[Tzarevitch]

I think I had it correctly the first time. Here are the relevant rules from the revised edition of ACtA, Book 1.

Regardless, the rule is, roll all hits first, then roll Dodges. That's how it's always been, that's how it's been ruled on a dozen times. Ask anyone who's been at a Mongoose Tournament how it was done there. Houserule how you like, naturally, but the rule has always been, roll all your hits, then dodge.

Wulf

I noticed people saying that but what I am wondering is, is that an actual rule that someone can cite or a FAQ or official ruling that I can show to a friend of mine, or is that simply what people have been doing for ease of game play?

Tzarevitch

 

[lastbesthope]

It's how it's done, it's how Matthew has rules in the past, it's how it's played at every official Mongoose tournament.

I can't link to a post from Matthew, I'd never be able to find one in the morass of this forum, but trust Wulf and myself, that's how it is.

LBH

 

[Wulf Corbett]

I can't link to a post from Matthew, I'd never be able to find one in the morass of this forum, but trust Wulf and myself, that's how it is.

You know, when he puts it that way, I start to doubt it myself... :?

Wulf

 

[lastbesthope]

If you really want to know for sure, then e-mail Matthew msprange@mongoosepublishing.com

And let us know the answer

LBH

 

[Voronesh]

And its how pretty much every wargame out there handles stuff.

offensive dice first then defensive, with no mingling and passing them back and forth.

there will be some games out there that handle stuff differently, but thats always the case.

And it would be quite a shock to see it handled differently on such a profound rule.

 

[Tzarevitch]

And its how pretty much every wargame out there handles stuff.

offensive dice first then defensive, with no mingling and passing them back and forth.

there will be some games out there that handle stuff differently, but thats always the case.

And it would be quite a shock to see it handled differently on such a profound rule.

But I am not playing "every wargame." I am playing B5 ACtA. One can't argue "this is how it is done," without being able to cite to where in the rule that it says that. The dodge rule is clear, you roll the dodge "whenever the ship suffers a hit." Not after all hits are tallied.

I am not sure why anyone is "mingling dice" or "passing them back and forth" as you say. If you have a ship with dodge, you simply keep some dice of your own. When you are hit, you quickly roll the dodge. It doesn't take more than a fraction of a second. In fact, it saves bookkeeping because you don't have to later determine which dice are dodge-able. Centauri ship hits with 3D of battle laser. White Star player (who had had his dice in hand) quickly rolls 3 dodges. It is as simple as that.

Note also now that I look at it, Interceptors area also supposed to be rolled "When the ship first suffers a hit," not after all hits are tallied.

Truthfully the fact that players have been saving the dodge and interceptor rolls for the end seems to be a player practice that is contrary to the rule.

Note also, dodge states that "If the die equalls or exceeds the Dodge score for the ship, all effects of the attack are ignored." That means even if you roll dodge at the end, you still have to go back and negate the continuing attack dice from beam hits because they are an effect from the original successful attack. It just seems easier to do as the rule says and roll the dodge immediately do you don't have to go and figure out which effects derived from the original hit.

Tzarevitch

P.S. I hope no one takes offense at my spirited posting. I am just trying to determine what is the actual rule. Plus spirited discussions help me pass my workday faster

 

[Alexb83]

Think about it this way... the beam reroll represents the beam cutting through the hull of the ship in question.

If the target dodges the initial strike of the beam, it can't be cut through, because the beam has already missed.

Roll the first beam dice, hit. Roll to dodge that hit. If you fail to dodge, you take the hit and there's a reroll. If that hits, you roll to dodge again and so on... as usual the beam to hit dice increases by 1 each reroll.

That makes more sense to me.

But with the other example that LBh suggests, it's: The beam hits, it does its rerolls, and you roll to dodge the total damage of that beam hit, including the rerolls.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

You can houserule anyway you like, obviously, but you now know how the writer of the game plays it, and how it's done in any official Tournament.

Wulf