Dodge

[Tzarevitch]

I have a quick question. I apologize in advance if it has been asked and answered already.

If a ship or auxilliary succeeds on its dodge roll against a weapon hit, does that count as a miss? This matters for beam weapons and twin-linked weapons and I think CAF as well, because it controlls whether or not you get to re-roll. Logic would seem to dictate that a successful dodge counts as a miss, but as we all know, rules aren't guaranteed to be logical. As far as I can tell, the rules seem to be silent on this.

Tzarevitch

 

[Stonehorse]

My understanding is that you would roll for dodge once the number of hits has been worked out, so for example if a beam weapon did 9 hits, 9 dodges would be required.

 

[locarno24]

To the best of my knowledge you roll to dodge the total number of hits scored after they've been rolled and counted:

i.e. if you 'dodge' a Concentrate All Fire! hit, you're opponent doesn't get a reroll to try again. So essentially a dodged hit is not a miss.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

You make all AD rolls (including beam rerolls), then the target dodges. CAF and twin linked can't allow a reroll at that stage.

Say for example a primus fires on a white star with lasers and twin arrays, and gets a total of six laser hits (after additional rolls) and 8 twin array hits (after twin linked rerolls). The white star's player now has to roll 6 dodges for the laser hits, and 8 for the twin array hits.

 

[Shadow Queen]

You make all AD rolls (including beam rerolls), then the target dodges. CAF and twin linked can't allow a reroll at that stage.

Say for example a primus fires on a white star with lasers and twin arrays, and gets a total of six laser hits (after additional rolls) and 8 twin array hits (after twin linked rerolls). The white star's player now has to roll 6 dodges for the laser hits, and 8 for the twin array hits.

So thats a yes If you dodge then they miss

 

[Wulf Corbett]

So thats a yes If you dodge then they miss

Depends on your meaning. If you have a weapon or a SA that allows you to reroll a miss, a Dodged Hit does NOT count as a miss. It's not a hit either though.

Wulf

 

[Voronesh]

Well a dodged roll is a miss.

BUT

You first roll all the AD disregarding Dodge.

THEN and only then, when all hits have been applied does you enemy get to apply dodge.

You have the dice, and then does the enemy have them, there is no switching em back.

 

[Tzarevitch]

My understanding is that you would roll for dodge once the number of hits has been worked out, so for example if a beam weapon did 9 hits, 9 dodges would be required.

That's what I thought although I was hoping that I misunderstood. It is really counter-intuitive that way though.

A beam gets to roll its initial hits then its cascade follow up hits despite the fact that you may end up dodging the initial hit without which the cascade hits wouldn't be possible. This paradoxically makes beams very good against dodging targets when logically they should be poor against them. If the original beam hit is dodged, you should not get the followup hit chances based on a hit which didn't actually happen. :shock:

You'd think twin-liked weapons would be good against agile targets because of the re-rolling but they aren't. You rolled a hit, so you don't get to re-roll the twin-link, but dodge then negates the hit as if it never happened. Except, but for that original hit (which then became a non-hit, yet not actually a miss), you don't get a re-roll. In fact, if you miss with a twin-link beause if your opponent's tough hull or your bad aim you get a re-roll, but if you miss because he dodged, you don't get a re-roll. :shock:

Truthfully, the dodge order needs to be re-visisted. I understand keeping the rules simple but that is TOO simple. A miss is a miss. Dodge needs to occur after initial hits or misses are tallied (I'll call them "provisional" hits) but before followup effects (such as laser cascade hits, twin-linked followup fire, and CAF re-rolls) are determined.

Tzarevitch

 

[katadder]

that would give people more reason to complain about whitestars, they use their multiple beam hits to get through the dodge, if they have less to dodge then they will become a bit too hard.

 

[angelus2000]

True. But to some degree that mechanic woudl necessitate a rebalance with dam/crew scores. How many times did we see a whitestar evaporate from a beam hit on the show?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Beams are harder to dodge because they continue to play around the area of space where the target is for a few seconds. They chase the target. Therefore, they can continue to hit after they're dodged.

Wulf

 

[Voronesh]

Yep

B5 Beams do not fire a superstrong oneshot thingy.

Rather they keep pumping out power for a long time and keep tracing a target or raking along its hull.

 

[Tank]

actually what happens is, that you roll all the dice to hit and then any that do hit you throw at the model and if it stays upright then it has successfully dodged all the shots! :lol:

Must invest in heavier dice

 

[captainsmirk]

Plus the more hits you score the more the ship has to dodge and the more chances it has to fail. Thus Twin-linked does have an effect. A weapon with the same stats but no Twin-linked wouldn't get those chances to re-roll its initial misses and would score less hits in the first place, meaning less dodging required to avoid them all (gotta love statistics :lol.

However I have never really understood the Twin-linked rules which allow rerolls (in this or other games) I mean most of the weapons the twin-barrels or what ever are so close together that if one hits the other is almost certain to, meaning they should actually be more like Double Damage, but oh well...

Nick

 

[Tzarevitch]

Beams are harder to dodge because they continue to play around the area of space where the target is for a few seconds. They chase the target. Therefore, they can continue to hit after they're dodged.

Wulf

That would make sense if they did damage though more dice like pulse cannon. Beams' extra damage comes because the initial dice scored a hit. If the target dodged the hit, it doesn't make sense that beams should get the extra dice.

Tzarevitch

P.S. BTW. I love to see Whitestars evaporate as much as the next guy, but the rule doesn't make sense.

 

[lastbesthope]

Say for example a primus fires on a white star with lasers and twin arrays, and gets a total of six laser hits (after additional rolls) and 8 twin array hits (after twin linked rerolls). The white star's player now has to roll 6 dodges for the laser hits, and 8 for the twin array hits.

Indeed, however to further clarify, you must resolve the damage to a WS individually for each weapon system as Adaptive Armour halves damage by each weapon system inflicting it..

LBH

 

[Wulf Corbett]

That would make sense if they did damage though more dice like pulse cannon. Beams' extra damage comes because the initial dice scored a hit. If the target dodged the hit, it doesn't make sense that beams should get the extra dice.

The fact the target HAD TO dodge means the beam was correctly targetted. A Dodge doesn't displace the target very far at all, so the beam can still be given a minimal correction and target it again. It helps that most beams are also lightspeed energy weapons, so the real question should be why is dodge allowed at all?

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, the answer is genre emulation, which is the best answer to any question in any game reproducing a known effect or setting.

Wulf

 

[Tzarevitch]

Plus the more hits you score the more the ship has to dodge and the more chances it has to fail. Thus Twin-linked does have an effect. A weapon with the same stats but no Twin-linked wouldn't get those chances to re-roll its initial misses and would score less hits in the first place, meaning less dodging required to avoid them all (gotta love statistics :lol.

>snip<

Nick

But those initial hits or misses occur whether or not the ship has dodge. The part that confuses me is that dodge causes the net effect of a miss. But because the miss was caused by a dodge roll instead of a missed initial hit roll, Twin-Linked and CAF don't get to re-roll but beams DO get to re-roll. That doesn't make sense. A miss is a miss.

Tazarevitch

 

[Wulf Corbett]

But those initial hits or misses occur whether or not the ship has dodge. The part that confuses me is that dodge causes the net effect of a miss. But because the miss was caused by a dodge roll instead of a missed initial hit roll, Twin-Linked and CAF don't get to re-roll but beams DO get to re-roll. That doesn't make sense. A miss is a miss.

The bolt, energy ball, burst, or whatever from a Twin-Linked weapon has passed the target by when it dodges. There's nothing else coming. When the target dodges the beam, the firing ship is still firing, and can correct the beam's aim to have another go. It's the difference between throwing a brick at someone or having a go at him with a stick. You only get one throw, but all the swipes you want.

Wulf

 

[lastbesthope]

I like the analogy Wulf.

LBH