Docking clamp question

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Greetings,
A docking clamp allows a ship to carry other ships, as I imagine everyone knows.

Is it possible to install the docking clamp on the smaller craft, allowing it to latch on to any ship?

If so, would this work just as normally, or lead to catastrophic jump bubble destabilization due to the mothership not being designed for external loads, or would the bubble simply extend due to hull-on-hull contact through the clamp? Would the clamps even lock on to the larger hull? (Perhaps through some form of mag- or gravlock?)

My plan is to install type II docking clamps on heavy fighters, enabling a flight of six to escort a subsidized liner through jumpspace by piggybacking up to jump-2, providing protection all the way from port to port, without a dedicated carrier.

A mercenary cruiser could carry up to eight for protection and fire support while managing j-2, and even free traders and scouts could turn into j-1 micro-carriers.

The fighter crews would live in their craft for the journey, they do have staterooms and common areas after all.

Would this work?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Strictly by RAW it is iffy, since the ship would technically be the carried craft and need a bigger clamp.

But reasonably it should work.


I would allow it, in fact I made something similar recently with a 99 Dt "caravan" that could attach to any J-2 capable ship for interstellar transport.

 

[Condottiere]

It shouldn't be an issue, the hyperdrive process depends on the total volume within the jump bubble.

It would be like lice hooking into the skin, and the clamp would need to be able to support the weight of the fighter.

 

[Reynard]

Usually ships with docking claps are also dedicated to such purposes having the power and drive capability to acquire extra tonnage. A fighter clamping on to a Free Trader is going to be a real drag. Check the docking clamp chart and notice the displacement of various clamp and the maximum displacement they can carry. Make little sense when either the small craft is mostly that clamp or the craft's clamp can attach to very small vessels.

 

[h1ro]

How do we visualize the clamp?

Is it particular to a model of ship?

Does it attach at just one point or are there multiple points of contact?

Is it like a lamprey eel sucking on at one point only?

I prefer to think that it's multiple points of contact and within the size limits of each clamp type it will fit different ships. If that's the case then I am not sure you could fit the clamp to the smaller ship.

 

[h1ro]

The trouble with the clamp being a single point of contact is at high G there's a lot of stress in the link. Maybe you'd need to use a hardpoint to manage the load? I know that's not in the rules but I'm just trying to make the logic of hard points that mount lasers (high recoil weapons... ) with being able to attach an unlimited number of ships.

 

[PsiTraveller]

The Pilum class defense fighter. Designed to charge the enemy and latch on to prevent jumping away by increasing Jump tonnage beyond what the Jump engines can move. That could be an interesting defensive strategy to prevent raids where ships jump in, attack and jump out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilum

 

[Reynard]

I'd say a Jumpbreaker missile is a cheaper alternative. First off, look at the docking clamp table to determine how big the clamp apparatus is for the displacement of ship to be attached. Even the smallest 200 ton jump capable ship would require the fighter to have a 10 ton clamp. This fighter Is going to be HUGE to be effective. Also note:

"It takes three full rounds to release or clamp a ship of less than 2,000 tons, during which time neither ship can expand (sic) any Thrust or make any attack rolls. Larger ships take D3+3 rounds."

In the situation you want, both are doing a knife dance. Try a Forced linkage Apparatus to hold on to an evading target.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Pilum would only need a 2 Dt Forced Linkage Apparatus. Toss in a Breaching Tube and a few marines and you'll soon own the target ship.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Thanks for the input everyone!

The drastically reduced thrust issue is simple to overcome, by having the fighters clamp on just before jump, and detach the moment they exit jumpspace.

The type II docking clamp requires 5 dt and can carry loads between 31-99 dtons. My reasoning was that if it can hold a 50 dt fighter it should also be enough to hold on to a larger ship and keep the fighter attached it.

The point that may destroy my plan is if the above isn't true (which does seem to be the case) and the fighter needs to have a clamp that can hold the larger craft. The clamp needed to "hold" a mercenary cruiser would obviously be too large for a fighter, but it kinda depends on who carries who, so to speak.

And as I open High Guard to look up the stats for docking clamps I notice the very next item: forced linkage apparatus. Perhaps that's a better solution?

This got me thinking, and a new, perhaps more relevant, question pops up: how are jump bubbles formed? What is required for two or more ships to "share bubble"? A docking clamp works, as does carrying one craft within the other. But what else? Is it enough to have hull-to-hull contact?

Is the size of the bubble (or rather, of the ship intended to travel within it) decided during the pre-jump calculation phase along with the range of the jump, or will the bubble expand until it covers "everything in range"? Perhaps it "fills" nearby gravity wells, or propagates across the hull of the jumping ship - either version would allow two connected ships to travel together, and both would make the range a secondary function, dependent upon how large the bubble gets and thus how high the pressure gets within the bubble (my understanding is that during the trip the bubble gradually loses pressure until it's too low to maintain the bubble, at which point it pops and the ship returns to normalspace).

 

[h1ro]

Previous versions have documented how the jump bubble is formed including some kind of mesh or network that runs thru the ship, I don't recall which version that was.

I don't believe Mongoose makes any clear claim on how it works, they're happy to leave each group/individual to decide the details.

For Mongoose I'd say, as long as the total tonnage is within the limits of the drive you should be good to go.

With regards to docking/undocking before/after jump, if the ship is moving to jump in a hurry or under attack, you're gonna have problems docking:

It takes three full rounds to release or clamp a ship of less than 2,000 tons, during which time neither ship can expand any Thrust or make any attack rolls. Larger ships take D3+3 rounds."

Likewise if you're planning atmospheric entry with the ship, it becomes unstreamlined when it has ship's clamped to it.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I have heard something about a mesh or grid. Either it must be a standard feature of every hull (including those not designed for jump travel) or the bubble extends some distance away from the ship, since non-jump capable ships and small craft can be carried externally in clamps and not get torn off during jump transit or cause misjumps or bubble destabilization.



Yes it will take three rounds to attach or detach the fighters, but that should be manageable most of the time - worst case just leave the fighters and come back for them later. They are tough, and can run and hide for two weeks until their mothership comes back for them.

I wouldn't wanna attempt to land with them still attached, no - better for the fighters to detach and land on their own.

I guess the beauty of an intentionally vague system is that I can decide for myself how I want it to work - my game, my rules

So if I want a docking clamp to work the other way around (the ship wishing to be towed carries a clamp large enough to support its mass), I can just say it does, and in all of my games, it will. Though I'd better think about other implications, such as any ship being able to haul external cargo loads easier, which among other things make far traders superior to free traders even at j-1... normally the free trader would make more money on a j-1 trip due to its larger cargo space, while the far trader would obviously have an advantage just being able to reach j-2, but a far trader that could carry up to 200 dt externally for j-1 voyages would make the free trader obsolete...

The easiest way is to just give up on a stupid idea, and sacrifice some cargo space to install clamps on the ship(s) that I want to be able to use as micro-carriers

 

[h1ro]

I really like the idea of docking clamps and external cargo. To me, more ships would be unstreamlined and not make planet fall. That's not very Traveller tho. So it's not so much that the ideas clash with canon, more that they don't sit well with most of the previously published material. What that means to me is that I have to do more work...

I guess the beauty of an intentionally vague system is that I can decide for myself how I want it to work - my game, my rules

The beauty and the utter frustration. Players and referees moving between groups where each group is playing essentially a different game in a different setting makes for a fractured gaming community. With so much history tho, I think I understand Mongoose's stance, they will never please everyone, too many grognards!

 

[h1ro]

Yes it will take three rounds to attach or detach the fighters, but that should be manageable most of the time - worst case just leave the fighters and come back for them later. They are tough, and can run and hide for two weeks until their mothership comes back for them.

Damn, I wouldn't want to be a pilot in your setting!

Might be three weeks before the ship comes back for the fighters. If it returns at all to a hostile system that it fled leaving it's assets behind!

Three miserable weeks low on ammo, food, with nowhere to get up and walk and nothing but the few diapers you can cram into the cockpit with you to pee and poop in...

Now ok, you can design your small craft to be more self sufficient but as a military or para military doctrine it sucks!

 

[phavoc]

Previous versions have documented how the jump bubble is formed including some kind of mesh or network that runs thru the ship, I don't recall which version that was.

I don't believe Mongoose makes any clear claim on how it works, they're happy to leave each group/individual to decide the details.

Prior to MGT a ship that jumped had to have a lanthanum jump grid embedded in the hull. I believe all previous versions had this explanation.

MGT v1 has the jump bubble, a temporary pocket universe formed out of exotic particles created by the ship at the time of jump. The jump bubble formation time is, I assume, instantaneous or else a ship at thrust would only be partially in any jump bubble it created. And once the bubble collapses (over time) the ship is returned to real space at it's new destination.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Three miserable weeks low on ammo, food, with nowhere to get up and walk and nothing but the few diapers you can cram into the cockpit with you to pee and poop in...

The Heavy Fighter in MgT2 has a couple of staterooms and hence full life-support.

 

[AndrewW]

You could put a Jump Net around the fighter to be carried.

 

[Condottiere]

It's only stressful if the fighter or smaller craft has to act as a tugboat; other than that, it only has to consider it's own volume when hanging on.

 

[Reynard]

"The beauty and the utter frustration. Players and referees moving between groups where each group is playing essentially a different game in a different setting makes for a fractured gaming community. With so much history tho, I think I understand Mongoose's stance, they will never please everyone, too many grognards!"

The entire RPG world is awash in 'homebrew'. Far too many feel [fill in the blank system] is not as good as we can make it so we make all these homebrew rules. It's not the fault of the RPG's game mechanics even if they summon Rule Zero. It's the groups going their own way. You want to avoid the chance of homebrewing, stick to officially sanctioned games and tourneys or very trusted friends.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Yes it will take three rounds to attach or detach the fighters, but that should be manageable most of the time - worst case just leave the fighters and come back for them later. They are tough, and can run and hide for two weeks until their mothership comes back for them.

Damn, I wouldn't want to be a pilot in your setting!

Might be three weeks before the ship comes back for the fighters. If it returns at all to a hostile system that it fled leaving it's assets behind!

Three miserable weeks low on ammo, food, with nowhere to get up and walk and nothing but the few diapers you can cram into the cockpit with you to pee and poop in...

Now ok, you can design your small craft to be more self sufficient but as a military or para military doctrine it sucks!

As AnotherDilbert noted, the Heavy Fighter has two full-size staterooms, a fairly spacious common area and a corridor running the whole length of the Craft - plus I also promise that they'd get the gourmet model autochef installed

Additionally, this isn't something they'd need to to regularly, only in extreme emergency when all other options fail and the time needed to clamp the fighters means death for merc cruiser and fighters!

You could put a Jump Net around the fighter to be carried.

Thanks for the reminder, a net would sure save space aboard the cruiser compared to clamps!

It's only stressful if the fighter or smaller craft has to act as a tugboat; other than that, it only has to consider it's own volume when hanging on.

Well, my idea was to only clamp them on just as the mothership prepares to jump, no realspace manoeuvering is planned with the fighters attached.

"The beauty and the utter frustration. Players and referees moving between groups where each group is playing essentially a different game in a different setting makes for a fractured gaming community. With so much history tho, I think I understand Mongoose's stance, they will never please everyone, too many grognards!"

The entire RPG world is awash in 'homebrew'. Far too many feel [fill in the blank system] is not as good as we can make it so we make all these homebrew rules. It's not the fault of the RPG's game mechanics even if they summon Rule Zero. It's the groups going their own way. You want to avoid the chance of homebrewing, stick to officially sanctioned games and tourneys or very trusted friends.

I can see how this can become a problem, but it should be less of a problem in an RPG compared to a tabletop wargame like Warhammer (I hope) and in my particular case it shouldn't be any trouble at all, no gaming with unknowns for me (to be honest, barely any gaming with trusted friends either at the moment... )