Distances on Map of Glorantha?

[Archer]

No, I realize that preindustrial/pre-rennasiance peoples also traveled, I was just suggesting that the distances involved were less than we as modern folks deal with (after all, a 1/2 hour car drive was an all-day trip for most folks prior to automobiles), and as such, you don't need the same sort of large spans to seperate distinct cultures; a smaller 'continent' will suffice just fine.

Well, if you measure the time/distance ratio, then it is true. But they did travel as long and far as we do. It just took a lot more time. And it is important to remember that there was a different pace to life at that time. If it took two or three weeks to get to the destination, there was not much of a difference.
Basically only those who were true farmers exclusively lived a life that was a bit more fast-paced, as they had to consider seasons etc. to get the best benefits of the years harvest.
It is also important to not miss the importance of travels at sea. Even if it was travel that was relatively close to the shore, they traveled great distances.

There are some indiciations that greece merchants has been even up where I live (sweden), and it is known that the swedish vikings traveled to vinland (north amerika), but mostly all along the coasts of europe. They even were mercenaries to some persian king whose name I can not remember at the moment.
But this recorded movement occured during the "iron age", basically shortly before the fall of the roman empire. If we go even further back in time, to the bronze age, you will find that we have large groups of people who are semi-nomadic, and as such, travels quite far.
Interaction between ancient cultures is something historians are beginning to reconsider. It constantly appears proof that there was much more contact, interaction, between cultures with great distances between them, than we ever imagined.
Considering the difficulties to travel at sea, and the vessels they used, it is rather amazing.

If we exclude travel by sea, we still have a lot of movement going on. Especially as the roman empire spread. With the roman empire came roads, which greatly eased the troubles of travel. Through waystations and outriders, these roads also were a quite a bit more safe than travel through the wilderness.

It is important to note, that it is not really until the early middle ages, when we have really true farming cultures that people stayed in one place for a very long time, and they did not travel as much as before.

During the whole span of the roman empire, there was stability that made travel possible. And before that, most cultures were not fully farm communities, but semi-nomadic, or complemented their farming with a lot of hunting, or even trading. All which required travel.

Some really far fetched theories even say that the cultures around the mediterranean had contact with bronze age china. But considering the vessels used in this time, it is a theory that currently has not a shred of evidence, and seems all too impossible to accomplish.
But then, so was the idea of the vikings reaching northern america. So I guess anything is possible, if very improbable.

 

[Archer]

The "classical" world was much more vibrant and had a lot of more people moving about, traveling, than we previously expected.

While it's true that bronze-age graves in Britain contain artefacts from around the Black Sea and beyond, my apples come from Brazil...

It's a matter of degree.

Wulf

Well, of course there were some impassable distances. But the distances they traveled has proven to be much farther than any historian previously had estimated. In contrast to today's society, it was just a matter of time.
It would be very impractical to sail during these times for something like apples from a very far away land. But for gold, bronze, silver, spices, etc. it was a lucrative business.
So I would say that it is more a matter of time/distance ratio than degree. And also a matter of risk.

 

[SteveMND]

I'm not sure what you mean by Western Europe, could you clarify?

Well, I suppose more accurately I'd be referring to continental Europe and the areas touching that region as a whole then.

That region is significantly smaller than Genertela, yet still showed a stunning diversity in cultures and civilization throughout most of it's history.

This is always a tricky area, so mostly I just ignore it. Let me explain why. Because magical effects act both for and against any element of a good fantasy world,

Fair enough, although I would hypothesize that religion and the supernatural tends to seperate cultures from each other far more than it homogenizes them, so I would think in a world of tangible 'fantasy' magic and such, this trait would be even more pronounced.

 

[sexy_davey]

I'm pretty sure that I've compare maps from RQII and III and found the scales to be completely different. At one point, I think Dragon Pass was about 20 miles from Pavis...

I just assumed I'd been Gregged, and made each city a suitably dramatic distance from the next :

"I don't care if it is only 10 miles - it takes you 3 days, ok?"

 

[homerjsinnott]

They even were mercenaries to some persian king whose name I can not remember at the moment.

Do you mean the Varangian Guard? It was to the Byzantine Emperor,
and I think at one point Harald Hadrada was their captain(my ref is a big fan). But they could have got there earlier.

Weren't the Egyptians a farming culture?

From what I can see... Genertela and Continental Europe are roughly the same size if you exclude Valind's Glacier (who cares about a few mangy trolls and Ice demons? ). Around ten million km (Europe is listed as 10,400,000, Yelm only knows what Genertela is :? ).

 

[Darran]

This map scale problem has been around and discussed at great length for RuneQuest II and Hero Wars/HeroQuest.

I have done some Gloranthan cartography myself, [Dagori Inkarth map from Uz Book] and I doubled the scale just to fit everything in. I also know that the Lunar Empire map was 'stretched-out' a bit as well just to get every nation in.

 

[homerjsinnott]

This map scale problem has been around and discussed at great length for RuneQuest II and Hero Wars/HeroQuest.

I have done some Gloranthan cartography myself, [Dagori Inkarth map from Uz Book] and I doubled the scale just to fit everything in. I also know that the Lunar Empire map was 'stretched-out' a bit as well just to get every nation in.

Thanks for your imput. Changing Km to miles might be a great compromise then [Groan].

 

[Archer]

They even were mercenaries to some persian king whose name I can not remember at the moment.

Do you mean the Varangian Guard? It was to the Byzantine Emperor,
and I think at one point Harald Hadrada was their captain(my ref is a big fan). But they could have got there earlier.

I no longer remember the exact details such as names etc. But I know there was not just one time, but several over a large section of history. Throughout their travels, the vikings often were mercenaries.

Weren't the Egyptians a farming culture?

Most were, to a certain degree. But you had a level of trade and cultural exchange that disappeared with the fall of the roman empire.

 

[jorganos]

I feel that the distances on the maps of Glorantha are too small, I think it's because early Runequest was USAcentric. North America is not one of the largest continents, most geopolitical maps overestimate its size by a sizable amount (and Europe's for that matter). A great way to see this is to get a Gall-Peters projection map (and help a worthwhile cause while you are at it).

If you convert Km to Miles on the map everything looks much more reasonable, and makes widely different cultures easier to explain.

While I second the emotion that distances are too small, I think the map already has stretched the scale, compared to the most recent (and decently scaled) maps by Issaries (Lunar Empire and Dragon Pass gazetteer maps). Working from those, I calculated a distance of 800 miles between the Rightarm Islands (the archipelago south of the Mirrorsea Bay in Kethaela) to Magasta's Pool as roughly 800 miles (1300km), and not the 2500 km offered on the new map.

The radial distance from the Pool makes some sense since the Imperial Age (still) is an age of overseas travel, with the Pool a bad place to encounter. It also gives a rough idea how much "Middle World" a place is - the eastern archipelago becomes otherworldly on Vithalash, the continent hidden there. Outer Pent might as well - only troll or Pentan heroes go there to encounter giant and frosty beings. Traveling the seas to the west will get you to the Lands of Dusk, quite otherworldly too.

I'm really happy with the scale of the map, and the fact that most major features can be placed on it without too much trouble. I'll try and scale the Lunar and Dragon Pass maps to it using GIS. Wish me luck...

 

[Jaldon Goldentooth]

Maybe the world is larger in Second Age. Perhaps Magasta's Pool is sucking in the land masses making the world smaller by the Third Age.

 

[Archer]

What liest to the north, and the south, of the mapped areas? the continents do not end there, I suppose?

 

[Jaldon Goldentooth]

What liest to the north, and the south, of the mapped areas? the continents do not end there, I suppose?

Actually, yes they do more-or-less end there. As you approch the edge of Glorantha it becomes more mystical than real. Passing across the edge will take you to the Hero Planes. Most mortals cannot cross the edges.

See http://www.glorantha.com/products/samples/otherworld.html

 

[Adept]

The scale of the maps is one of the persistant problems with Glorantha.

When this was discussed (at length) on the Hero Wars and Gloranthan Digest groups some years back I came up with this fix.

Multiplying the RQ-3 era map distanses by 6 (or by four and reading them as miles) the maps and cultures start to make sense.

Heortland (with 500 000 inhabitants) becomes the size of the island of Ireland, and the vast Lunar emprire becomes the size of the Persian empire at the hight of it's glory.

The Genertela = about the size of USA thing results in a rediculously overcrowded world where diverse ecological zones and exotic cultures are separated by just a few days of travel.

***

I just joined these forums. I'm really glad to see that the new game has taken the second age as the focus. Hopefully this new RQ will give people a real alternative to the horrors of D&D again.

 

[t-tauri]

Maybe the world is larger in Second Age. Perhaps Magasta's Pool is sucking in the land masses making the world smaller by the Third Age.

Magasta's pool drags water off the land to fill the hole caused by the destruction of the spike. Before the spike exploded the waters tried to invade the land and so flowed uphill!

 

[jorganos]

What liest to the north, and the south, of the mapped areas? the continents do not end there, I suppose?

North of Valind's Glacier lies the magical, frost covered land of Altinela. Little has been published about it, except that Prince Snodal visited there, and Hero Wars/HeroQuest stats for a typical guardian warrior in Anaxial's Roster.

The Altinelans live on the permanently snowed in shores north of the glacier and guard the weak place where the Unholy Trio and Wakboth re-entered Glorantha. Beyond lie the immeasurable spans of Sramak's River which surrounds the entire world of Glorantha (even flowing outside of the Gates of Dusk and Dawn). Heroic beings sail there, to face even more heroic water demons.

To the south of the Nargan desert in Pamaltela lie the burning or at least boiling southern seas, some of which flow into the middle seas east of Pamaltela. The lands of the original fire-people of Pamaltela and the hotvEnmal mountains of Balumbasta (or whatever that Pamaltelan version of Lodril is called today) lie in the southeast. In the southwestern center once was an interior sea at the center of the Artmali Empire. Another swamp, presumably heat-resistant, spread far out into the river at one mythic age, but may have been destroyed when the Nargan burnt out.

Across the western ocean lie the Luathan lands, an archipelago with sorcerous demigods. The Deri (other demigods once enslaved by the Waertagi) lands are somewhere out there, too.

In the far east the continent of Vithela is inhabited by immortals. This is where many easterners go before rebirth or attaining some version of Nirvana.

Beyond that, there is only sea, and storm, getting ever more monstrous the farther out you go. There might be places where sailing from the sea into the sky could be possible - probably when the Celestial river happens to be in place, too. Same for the Underworld, and possibly weak places to sail through beyond the sky (as in "Outer Atomic Explorers").

 

[Archer]

Jorganos: Thank you for that description.

I have always thought that there is a little too much water, and too little land on Glorantha (the maps that I have seen), and that there must be something beyond what is shown on the map.

Unfortunately, I do not own many RQ supplements, so my knowledge is (and was) rather limited. It is also 18 years since I last played in Glorantha, so I have forgot alot. My head can only contain a certain amount of setting information, and I have read too many settings since that time.

 

[jorganos]

There can always be magical islands, dropped stars/comets or other mythical flotsam and jetsam far out. I also have the theory that if you go that far out, you and your stuff will grow to super-human proportions in order to match the forces that oppose you (or you won't make it there), so that sailing around Glorantha might be a lot faster if you go really far out.

If you like to play in a multiverse, there is no reason not to have another magical land-mass out there (possibly even under a different sky dome). The Red Moon of the Third Age has lots of magical landscape, and former planets (from either sky or underworld) could have ended up as islands or continents far away from the middle world.

But then, you can simply go up the sky dome and trot through the landscape there - similar rules.

 

[Archer]

Since your description, I have toyed with the idea of using the Stormbringer module; Sailing on the seas of Fate, which handles ships in Stormbringer. But also touches upon on the fact that in the Young Kingdoms, it is possibe to sail to other realities altogheter (Elric does this in the saga). So through sailing, you can travel the multiverse.

 

[TRose]

As far as ancient trade goes it should be remember that the ancient Phoenicians trade at least as far as England for tin, and there is evidence that they even reach as far as Dakar in Africa and Brazil.The Sumerian records list traders that are believe to have come from the Indus valley area and its possible even Indonesia. Look at how far the Maylays traveled From Madagascar to Easter Island if really want to see an Ancient people who spanned the globe even befor they developed bronze work.
And as far as map scale of Glorantha. I thought like others it was too small for my taste and base on discusions with others on the web I increased the scale X3. On the official scale the Lunar Empire the size of England while Sartar is about as big as London. I modified other things too as sometime the information out there was scant or did not make sense to me.Remember its your game if you dont like whats written dont be afraid to chang eit.

 

[The Greek]

Apparently the Egyptians used cocaine, based on chemical tests on their mummified remains. Although the idea of trade between old world and new back then is very sceptically received in the archaeological community.

However it is generally accepted that there was trade between ancient Egypt and China at least 3000 years age.