Dirty Grapple

Voltumna

Mongoose
Dirty grapple is a variant rule for Ruffians (multiclass thief-barbarian) from Hyboria's Fallen (page 112). You take it in lieu of Bite sword or Crimson mist at 2nd barbarian level. It works like this:

The ruffian takes a -2 on his opposed grapple check, and the opponent has to be susceptible to sneak attacks. If he succeeds, his oponent is stuned for 1d6 rounds, and you don't need to maintain the grapple for that long. It doesn't say the opponent gets a saving throw, so should the opponent get a saving throw or not?
 

Belkregos

Mongoose
Dirty grapple

Upon gaining 2nd barbarian level, the character may elect to take dirty grapple instead of bite sword or crimson mist. The power of the barbarians grip combined with the thiefs knowledge of vital organs and weak points makes for a deadly adversary. When grappling a creature susceptible to critical hits or sneak attacks, he may make a dirty grapple instead. By winning an opposed grapple attempt (in which the ruffian suffers a -2 penalty), the character can stun his opponent for 1d6 rounds
- he need not maintain the grapple for the creature to remain stunned for the duration

from what I read the ruffian needs to fulfill the requisites for a sneak attack before he is able to use this attack (the victim needs to be flat footed or flanked )

“When grappling a creature susceptible to critical hits or sneak attacks, he may make a dirty grapple instead.”

I would think to stun a victim some king of saving throw is needed, but I’m not clear on the rules for stunning, what kind of difficulty would there be for the save?

Any thoughts?
 

Crisippo

Mongoose
I don't have the Hyboria's Fallen book, but i would look at the problem like this:

The feat Stunning Attack in my Conan RPG rulebook (p.126) says:

(...) to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ one-half your level +Str modifier)

The Stunning Attack feat has got some heavy prerequisites (BAB +8) so getting it at 2nd Level without your opponent having to make a saving throw seems very nasty (even if you have to be able to sneak attack him) I would use the saving throw from the feat and leave the rest of the ability unchanged. That still makes it bad but not a killer (and won't encourage the GM to have Ruffian NPC's ambush you at every corner)

But then again... why not just make it nasty. We're talking about the Hyborian Age here...
 

GrimJesta

Mongoose
That's some decent reasoning there Crisippo. It's decent enough reasoning that even if someone from Mongoose were to come on here and say that there is no save, I might be inclined to house rule it. Otherwise that is pretty strong for a level 2 ability. Regardless, I think you're spot on and an official ruling would state something similiar, no? Anyone have any reasoning learning towards there not being a save?

-=Grim=-
 

Thoth Aw C'mon

Mongoose
Voltumna said:
Dirty grapple is a variant rule for Ruffians (multiclass thief-barbarian) from Hyboria's Fallen (page 112). You take it in lieu of Bite sword or Crimson mist at 2nd barbarian level. It works like this:

The ruffian takes a -2 on his opposed grapple check, and the opponent has to be susceptible to sneak attacks. If he succeeds, his oponent is stuned for 1d6 rounds, and you don't need to maintain the grapple for that long. It doesn't say the opponent gets a saving throw, so should the opponent get a saving throw or not?

I'm just cracking up about the name of this variant rule... Dirty Grapple...heh heh... :wink:
 

Voltumna

Mongoose
If you had the feat Crushing grip in adition to the Dirty grapple, would the same grapple check cause the effect of the feat and the ability? i.e. CG deals the opponent damage to strength, constitution or dexterity, and if he doesn't make the dirty grapple check, he is also stunned for 1d6?
 

Belkregos

Mongoose
here's the response from the rulesmaster forum to the original question

Expert_Guide said:
Hello,

The default mechanic for saving throws in d20 based games is usually something like this:

10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + XXX Modifier

for any effect that is not spell related.

In this case I would use something like this:

Requires a Fortitude save DC (10 + 1/2 Ruffian Multiclass Progression + Dex modifier).

I think it would be important to only scale the DC so long as the character remains on the Ruffian path. I chose Dex to indicate this is a precision/pressure point like effect.

- Mark
 
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