Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[ShawnDriscoll]

Is there a sweet spot for DMs and Boon/Bane to live happily together or is it literally or effectively one or the other?

Whatever you express as DMs has greater weight than what you express with Boon/Bane as DMs modify the Effect as well as the chance of success. To my mind, the sweet spot lies with skill and characteristic bonuses. They should weigh heavier and therefor be expressed with DMs.

Difficulty (aka TargetNum), DMs, Skills (technically DMs), CharMods (also DMs), and Boon/Bane work independent of each other. What a Referee is after is an Effect. Otherwise, no skill check is even needed.

 

[TrippyHippy]

DMs determined by players. TNs determined by Referee. Boon/Bane determined by the weather....

I think Trippy isn't really interested in improving Boon/Bane. And is more into creating confusion where there is none.

First, understand why a skill check is even being done. Then go from there with the skill check rules.

I think, Shawn, you are getting personal. Your responses here have been less than helpful, and for the record my questions and feedback are directly taken from comments made by actual playtest.

That previous comment I quoted wasn't mine, by the way, and if you are simply trying to be obtuse about these criticisms then you are damaging the process of this playtest.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Trippy,
Do you agree that Boon/Bane needs tidying up to work properly, getting rid of it in the core rules except where it is absolutely needed, and then leaving it in the hands of a referee for in-game/on the fly usage? That the rules/scenario define the difficulty and DMs? And that a referee just needs to apply Boon/Bane on top (with the understanding that veteran referees will change the Difficulty and DM if they see a need to)?

 

[-Daniel-]

Regardless of how I want to use or not use Bane/boon rolls, I agree with TippyHippy. The rules as they now stand are still not real clear on the intended use of the mechanic. It still feels like something added onto the system rather than something that is a part of the system.

Do I like that I could give the player a bonus without increasing the possible effect of the roll? Yes, I do. But I am not sure of the need for it as a core mechanic. I think it does need some loving (read editing) in order to be clear as possible.

As for it just being a "me too" D&D mechanic, I don't care where they found it, the ability to add to the probability of a success or failure of a die roll without adding to or taking away from th effect is a useful tool.

Thanks, Stainless. I was getting to the point of questioning my sanity with where the debate was heading. At least somebody recognizes the point I was making - and that is all I want, basically.

Don't question your sanity, regardless of whether I agree with you or not, you do bring up a valid point for discussion.

 

[TrippyHippy]

The problem is that the application of the boon/bane mechanic is vague and can therefore be confusing for new players and referees. I would leave it out of the core rules, and expand on it as an optional rule in the Companion book. This is broadly a consensus view from feedback though my playing group.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The problem is that the application of the boon/bane mechanic is vague and can therefore be confusing for new players and referees. I would leave it out of the core rules, and expand on it as an optional rule in the Companion book. This is broadly a consensus view from feedback though my playing group.

How should it be explained in the core book so that it is understood by new players and referees?

 

[TrippyHippy]

"An alternative mechanic to DMs for handling nebulous factors that can affect the outcome of a task is to use Boon and Bane dice. This involves adding additional dice to the roll and either keeping the best two (boon) or worst two (bane) for the roll total. This has the advantage of affecting the probability of success without affecting the range, and cuts down on the need for multiple DMs needing to be applied. This option will be discussed in greater detail in the Traveller Companion."

 

[Stainless]

Is there a sweet spot for DMs and Boon/Bane to live happily together or is it literally or effectively one or the other?

Whatever you express as DMs has greater weight than what you express with Boon/Bane as DMs modify the Effect as well as the chance of success. To my mind, the sweet spot lies with skill and characteristic bonuses. They should weigh heavier and therefor be expressed with DMs.

Agreed. Perhaps equipment should be expressed as DMs and environment by Boon/Bane. But that doesn't clearly categorise all events...

 

[Wizard]

The problem is that the application of the boon/bane mechanic is vague and can therefore be confusing for new players and referees. I would leave it out of the core rules, and expand on it as an optional rule in the Companion book. This is broadly a consensus view from feedback though my playing group.

I sadly agree. Initially I thought it would be a fun mechanic, but the more I play with it, the more I am of the mind that it doesn't add anything to the game that a DM couldn't. It doesn't gives us much mechanically as indicated by vladthemad's probability analysis:

Boon vs. +2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 100.00%
| 4+ | 98.15% 100.00%
| 6+ | 89.35% 91.67%
| 8+ | 68.06% 72.22%
| 10+ | 35.65% 41.67%
| 12+ | 7.51% 16.67%
| 14+ | 0.00% 2.78%

Bane vs. -2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 91.67%
| 4+ | 80.09% 72.22%
| 6+ | 47.69% 41.67%
| 8+ | 19.44% 16.67%
| 10+ | 5.09% 2.78%
| 12+ | 0.46% 0.00%
| 14+ | 0.00% 0.00%

So in a rule system as abstract as Traveller is, is there room for DMs and Boon/Bane that roughly produce the same probabilities? Yes, there is a difference, but is it significant enough to warrant the added confusion in the core rulebook?

Lets just imagine Boon/Bane is removed and replaced by the following:

• DM+1 slight situational advantage
  DM+2 moderate situational advantage
  DM+3 significant situational advantage
  
  DM-1 slight situational disadvantage
  DM-2 moderate situational disadvantage
  DM-3 significant situational disadvantage

Would the above be a good enough for those occasions when adjudicating situational modifiers such as the "sun in your eyes", "headache", "wet floor", etc? I believe they give the same flexibility as Boon/Bane and they nicely tie in with the existing DM mechanic. They can also easily be cumulative if required, something that Boon/Bane does not currently allow.

 

[CosmicGamer]

They can also easily be cumulative if required, something that Boon/Bane does not currently allow.

and I think that is one of the main reasons for the bane/boon. To keep accumulating DMs which push a roll "out of bounds".

For example you are jumping across a gap. -DM for night, -DM for rain, -DM for carrying a load, -DM for being shot at while climbing...

It's one thing to make success harder, and another to make the roll unnecessary because it is now impossible because of all the accumulated DMs.

Do I personally think this is a problem that needs a new mechanic to solve? No. It shouldn't happen too often and if I saw that the task with DMs was getting beyond reason, I could always adjust the difficulty to bring it where I think it should be.

Overall though, here are my thoughts
Based on my initial understanding, I think it currently is not written well enough.
Through discussion in the forums, I have a better understanding of why and when to use it.
I would rather have it gone and use something like what Wizard suggests above, rather than be left written as is.
I'm not against bane/boon if it is written up well so that people are clear on not just how, but why and when to use it.

No, I am not going to try suggesting the exact wording for the rules because I still don't have a 100% grasp on how I'm going to implement it let alone want to tell others how to.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I'd like to also hear from the experienced referees and players, that do understand how Boon/Bane works, what they think about it?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

"An alternative mechanic to DMs for handling nebulous factors that can affect the outcome of a task is to use Boon and Bane dice. This involves adding additional dice to the roll and either keeping the best two (boon) or worst two (bane) for the roll total. This has the advantage of affecting the probability of success without affecting the range, and cuts down on the need for multiple DMs needing to be applied. This option will be discussed in greater detail in the Traveller Companion."

Ok. Just so I know, you are in the "use Boon/Bane instead of DMs" camp. Or in the "use Boon/Bane instead of player-added DMs" camp. Or both.

 

[Kaelic]

I'd like to also hear from the experienced referees and players, that do understand how Boon/Bane works, what they think about it?

No True Scotsman I see.

 

[-Daniel-]

I'd like to also hear from the experienced referees and players, that do understand how Boon/Bane works, what they think about it?

I responded to your new thread, but I do need to point his out.

Please stop assuming that because some of us do not see a real need for the mechanic or that feel the wording in the rules is too vague to mean we do not understand how the mechanic works.

The concept of a bane or Boon roll is almost too simple. Add a die and keep the two highest or lowest. No big deal.

How the mechanic is used within the game however is not so simple. We could elect to replace most DMs with the B/B mechanic, as was championed by you at one time. Or it could replace situational DMs. Or it could replace difficulty. Or it could..... In other words Shawn, 99% of the people I have read in these threads are not unclear what the mechanic is, but rather what is the best use for it and there are some questioning if it is needed at all.

Hope that helps you understand where many of the questions are really coming from.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

How the mechanic is used within the game however is not so simple. We could elect to replace most DMs with the B/B mechanic, as was championed by you at one time. Or it could replace situational DMs. Or it could replace difficulty. Or it could..... In other words Shawn, 99% of the people I have read in these threads are not unclear what the mechanic is, but rather what is the best use for it and there are some questioning if it is needed at all.

I got nailed in the past about the Rule Zero. Lots of hate mail for that. So I've since stopped using it, at least for the playtest. I am using the rules posted by Matthew since then, because they are pretty clear to me. I'll check to see if they were included in the revised PDF.

 

[-Daniel-]

How the mechanic is used within the game however is not so simple. We could elect to replace most DMs with the B/B mechanic, as was championed by you at one time. Or it could replace situational DMs. Or it could replace difficulty. Or it could..... In other words Shawn, 99% of the people I have read in these threads are not unclear what the mechanic is, but rather what is the best use for it and there are some questioning if it is needed at all.

I got nailed in the past about the Rule Zero. Lots of hate mail for that. So I've since stopped using it, at least for the playtest.

This has nothing to do with Rule Zero. I will speak for myself here. I want the rules to be clear and if I elect to adjust them with Rule Zero that is my problem alone. For me, the Bane/Boon three paragraph description seems clear until I realize all through the rules are lots of DMs I should be using. So do I use the DM for low light or a bane role or both? See nothing to do with Rule Zero.

If they elect to not change the text will it be OK? Sure, I will use it and elect to adjust as I see fit. But I would rather have a clean and clear rule first.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If they elect to not change the text will it be OK? Sure, I will use it and elect to adjust as I see fit. But I would rather have a clean and clear rule first.

For me, Boon/Bane is more of a role-play tool. The referee decides when/how it is used. Just as how the referee decides how role-play is done for a session.

ADDED:
I just found this text under Boon/Bane, "In the vast majority of cases, a referee simply need set a
Task Difficulty and then decide whether a Boon or Bane need be applied. Any necessary Dice Modifiers will be suggested by the rules."

That is how I've been using Boon/Bane.

 

[amerginsrd]

I feel boon/bane is important and not just an interesting thing you can use because there are so many DMs which are specified in the rules (aiming +1, laser sight +1, short range +1, etc.) that a roll can become quickly irrelevant as success is automatic and effect is going to be large. This mechanic speaks specifically to this problem in the core 2D system.

 

[amerginsrd]

I feel boon/bane is important and not just an interesting thing you can use because there are so many DMs which are specified in the rules (aiming +1, laser sight +1, short range +1, etc.) that a roll can become quickly irrelevant as success is automatic and effect is going to be large. This mechanic speaks specifically to this problem in the core 2D system.

 

[amerginsrd]

Oops, hit the button twice. Sorry.