Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[Stainless]

D20 rolls different than 2D. Also, A/D replaces DMs. B/B is not the same as a DM, so can't be used as a replacement.

But the intention is the same. Both mechanics shift the probability of obtaining a success in a polar manner by a randomly determined amount. As a mechanic concept they are the same.

 

[paulsnow]

Referees only concern themselves now with Difficulty target numbers, using Bane or Boon rolls instead of 2D rolls, and (most importantly) what the Effect is. If that isn't clearly explained in the book, it needs to be made so.

I agree - get rid of those DMs and it will be true.

Get rid of which DMs? List the mechanic you plan on using instead.

My reading is that Anselyn was supporting my proposal higher in the thread: ditch DMs - change the difficulty.
She's arguing as part of the more general flow of the conversation not just sniping at individual sentences.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I think Boon/Bane needs tidying up to work properly - basically, getting rid of it in the core rules except where it is absolutely needed, and then leaving it in the hands of the ref for in-game/on the fly usage.

The rules/scenario define difficulty and DMs. The ref just needs to apply Boon/Bane on top (with the understanding that veteran refs will change Difficulty and DM if they see the need).

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The rules/scenario define difficulty and DMs. The ref just needs to apply Boon/Bane on top (with the understanding that veteran refs will change Difficulty and DM if they see the need).

Perfect!

 

[Melbourne Accords]

'A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away'. - Antoine de Saint Exupéry.

On this basis of this philosophy of design, the core mechanic of MGT is elegant work: 2D+DM(s)≥8. Levels of difficulty are readily expressed as Dice Modifiers.

We have found Advantage/Disadvantage to be an enjoyable part of D&D 5E. A few months ago, I discussed the possibility of introducing a similar mechanic to Traveller with my players. It has intuitive value. The current proposal from Mongoose is useful for changing the likelihood of failure or success without impacting on Effect. This is helpful. It could also represent a special reward or penalty which is (by definition) outside the core mechanic.

It makes good sense to offer this mechanism to referees in the way that Matt describes.

 

[vladthemad]

On this basis of this philosophy of design, the core mechanic of MGT is elegant work: 2D+DM(s)≥8. Levels of difficulty are readily expressed as Dice Modifiers.

Has that changed back? The new rules made the difficulty a hard number, not a modifier. I wasn't sure why that changed either, which is a part of the conversation that seems to have been missed during the discussion. So it's 2D+DM(s)≥Task Difficulty now. I prefer the method you mentioned though, because as you noted less is more. I could do without the change to specific task difficulty numbers and would prefer it go back to 8 as being the target and difficulty being a dice modifier again.

 

[Melbourne Accords]

I agree, Vladthemad. My feedback is to preserve the original core mechanic, rather than to adopt the approach in the Beta. The succinct nature of Success = 8+ has been very helpful in presenting the game to a new players.

If it ain't broke don't fix it!

 

[Stainless]

But surely the explicit difficulty levels are the same as an implicit DM system?

If a character wants to do a task, the GM has to evaluate the difficulty AND then translate that into a DM that is applied to the 8+ roll. Why not just stop at the difficulty evaluation which gives you the 8+ and DM evaluation rolled into one?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Has that changed back? The new rules made the difficulty a hard number, not a modifier. I wasn't sure why that changed either, which is a part of the conversation that seems to have been missed during the discussion. So it's 2D+DM(s)≥Task Difficulty now. I prefer the method you mentioned though, because as you noted less is more. I could do without the change to specific task difficulty numbers and would prefer it go back to 8 as being the target and difficulty being a dice modifier again.

I am actually with you on this (!).

However, one of the internal playtesters made a very good point. By changing the target number, a ref can more easily hide the roll needed from the players - a useful tool for the ref to have.

I could see the point, so went ahead and made the change. After all, as far as the dice rolls themselves are concerned, there is no change. And it gives the ref some flexibility.

Just wanted you to know that if you had been part of the internal playtest, I would have sided with you

 

[TrippyHippy]

DMs determined by players. TNs determined by Referee. Boon/Bane determined by the weather....

 

[theodis]

However, one of the internal playtesters made a very good point. By changing the target number, a ref can more easily hide the roll needed from the players - a useful tool for the ref to have.

How so?

MgT1: Player knows that he has to hit an 8+, DMs can be applied in secret.
MgT2: Player thinks that he has to roll an 8+. difficulty level varies.

No difference there.

IMO the new system introduces an unnecessary level of complexity. Either keep hard-wired difficulty levels for everything that is predetermined and boon/bane for everything that comes up in game or DMs and boon/bane but allways 8+, but not all three.

The recent posts have shown that it is difficult to decide when to use boon/bane and DMs. I think that has become more clear though.

But: What's the difference then between a difficulty level and a DM when both are predetermined and hard-wired?

And I must second Melbourne Accords here. It's easier to present "always hit 8+" to new players.

 

[Stainless]

I don't think there's much of a difference here. Compare these two scenarios.

GM: "Are you going to shoot the guy?"
Player: "Yeah, OK, why not."
GM: "Go for it!"
Player: "OK, I'll use my pistol. I've got slug 2 and a Dex bonus of 1, but the pistol's just been run over, what's that going to do?"
GM: "Well the tires have mangled the sights somewhat....I recon you're at a -2."
Player: "No way! It's not that hard to point and shoot a pistol at someone, I'd say it's a -1."
GM: "Nope, sorry, it's -2."
Player: "OK, OK. So ermmm that's 2 + 1 -2, gives me a +1 overall so that will be a 7 or better."
Rolls dice.

GM: "Are you going to shoot the guy?"
Player: "Yeah, OK, why not."
GM: "Go for it!"
Player: "OK, I'll use my pistol. I've got slug 2 and a Dex bonus of 1, but the pistol's just been run over, what's that going to do?"
GM: "Well the tires have mangled the sights somewhat....I recon it will be a difficult shot now, so that's a 10 or better."
Player: "OK. So ermmm that's 2 + 1, gives me a +3 overall so that will be a 7 or better."
Rolls dice.

If anything, having a descriptive difficulty system makes the evaluation and defense of a target number easier than the less intuitive plucking a DM number out of the air.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Has that changed back? The new rules made the difficulty a hard number, not a modifier. I wasn't sure why that changed either, which is a part of the conversation that seems to have been missed during the discussion. So it's 2D+DM(s)≥Task Difficulty now. I prefer the method you mentioned though, because as you noted less is more. I could do without the change to specific task difficulty numbers and would prefer it go back to 8 as being the target and difficulty being a dice modifier again.

I am actually with you on this (!).

However, one of the internal playtesters made a very good point. By changing the target number, a ref can more easily hide the roll needed from the players - a useful tool for the ref to have.

I could see the point, so went ahead and made the change. After all, as far as the dice rolls themselves are concerned, there is no change. And it gives the ref some flexibility.

Just wanted you to know that if you had been part of the internal playtest, I would have sided with you

Floating target numbers are a cool idea. I got used to them rather quick. The Difficulty being the target number means less +/- being done for rolls. And players don't know exactly how difficult something is when not given such information. My last game, I don't think I even stated the difficulties to anyone. Only I knew them. Far superior than always saying "your total roll just has to be 8 or more." New players are not much fans of the static "8+" for every roll, and doing the +/- in their head figuring out the difficulty modifiers.

And floating target number are being used now by most popular RPGs.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I don't think there's much of a difference here. Compare these two scenarios.

GM: "Are you going to shoot the guy?"
Player: "Yeah, OK, why not."
GM: "Go for it!"
Player: "OK, I'll use my pistol. I've got slug 2 and a Dex bonus of 1, but the pistol's just been run over, what's that going to do?"
GM: "Well the tires have mangled the sights somewhat....I recon you're at a -2."
Player: "No way! It's not that hard to point and shoot a pistol at someone, I'd say it's a -1."
GM: "Nope, sorry, it's -2."
Player: "OK, OK. So ermmm that's 2 + 1 -2, gives me a +1 overall so that will be a 7 or better."
Rolls dice.

GM: "Are you going to shoot the guy?"
Player: "Yeah, OK, why not."
GM: "Go for it!"
Player: "OK, I'll use my pistol. I've got slug 2 and a Dex bonus of 1, but the pistol's just been run over, what's that going to do?"
GM: "Well the tires have mangled the sights somewhat....I recon it will be a difficult shot now, so that's a 10 or better."
Player: "OK. So ermmm that's 2 + 1, gives me a +3 overall so that will be a 7 or better."
Rolls dice.

If anything, having a descriptive difficulty system makes the evaluation and defense of a target number easier than the less intuitive plucking a DM number out of the air.

Scenario #3:
GM: "Are you going to shoot the guy?"
Player: "Yeah, OK, why not."
GM: "Go for it!"
Player: "OK, I'll use my pistol. I've got slug 2 and a Dex bonus of 1, but the pistol's just been run over, what's that going to do?"
GM: "Well the tires have mangled the sights somewhat....I reckon that's a Bane"
Player: "OK. So ermmm that's 2 + 1, gives me a +3 overall so that will be a 5 or better."
Rolls 3 dice and takes the two lower ones.

 

[Stainless]

I agree, I would actually use a Bane in the scenario I outlined.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Scenario #4:
Player: "I pick up the pistol and examine it real quick to see if it's damaged or not from being run over."
Referee: "Roll Gun Combat (Pistol) with INT to see." (Referee thinks Average (8+) difficulty to himself)
Total roll is 10.
Referee: "You can tell it's damaged, but it will still fire off a shot."
Player: "I point the pistol at him, taking care while pulling the trigger. And shoot."
Referee: "Bane roll Gun Combat (Pistol) with DEX for your shot." (Referee thinks Average (8+) difficulty to himself)
Total roll is 6.
Referee: "You missed him. And your gun is in slightly worse condition now."

 

[anselyn]

I agree, I would actually use a Bane in the scenario I outlined.

But isn't a Bane something that may or may not affect things? (c.f. the weather) Surely in the game world the pistol is or isn't damaged. Perhaps, as a sort of Luck roll, if the first shot with Bane hits then clearly the pistol isn't damaged - and from then on it's OK?

Schrodinger's Pistol Bane.(Let the dice decide)

 

[Stainless]

A Bane or a negative DM, you could easily argue both ways. But if it's a DM, how much? -1, -2? A Bane gets you around having to pin down the DM.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If I was playing 1st edition, where I'd slap +/1 DMs onto rolls, I probably would have added a -1 DM if I didn't make any change to the Difficulty modifier. If the gun was really banged up, then -3 DM. I'd probably have the player roll to see if the gun even fires, at that point.

 

[paulsnow]

A Bane or a negative DM, you could easily argue both ways. But if it's a DM, how much? -1, -2? A Bane gets you around having to pin down the DM.

I agree. Also, as insightfully pointed out by Bense and Shawn, one of the features of Bane is that it keeps the range of Effect constant. So, if the pistol does fire and it's a hit then it's as deadly as before.