Defensive Blast

[sanseveria]

I allow it, but with certain conditions. If it's used as intended, in my opinion (DM) then it's used as it with no changes.

If it's used rather like an offensive attack, (for example charging into a group of enemies and blowing up) then I've changed the rule slighlty. It becomes an attack action, scholar must save or be stunned, plus he must save vs corruption.

After the first few sessions, where it became obvious it was going to be abused, I made the above changes. DB has since only been used once, and it was as intended in the rules...

I have to admit, I like the above ideas about changing the effect to tentacles, or poison mist or whatever to capture more of a creepy feel...

SS

 

[Jason Durall]

I find DB Un-Conany (and totally unsuitable for PCs), so I've eliminated it in my game. It's an unfortunate inclusion in a generally very good rulebook IMO. I'd let the Scholar get an extra spell or feat instead.

I'm of the mind that I'd rather not have player-character sorcerers at all, as I find them to be even more un-Conanesque.

So I'll just discourage PC sorcerers, and let the nasty NPC variety keep the defensive blast, characterized in some way appropriate to the exact character (as suggested above).

 

[BhilJhoanz]

There's a line in The Black Colossus (I can look it up later unless Vince is at home) where Conan looks out at the Stygian sorcerer's troops and said something along the lines of a sorcerer being deadly at close quarters or when trapped. If I recall correctly, this was the flavor text that was used in the draft editions to accompany the rules of defense. --edit: just saw that this was addressed on page 2 of this thread! must have failed my spot check

Personally, I find this sort of fireworks a poor fit in the hyborian mythos. Sorcerers in Conan tend to operate in a more subtle and sinister fashion -- compelling others to do their bidding while they remain distant pulling the strings.

 

[argo]

*shrug* personally I haven't seen any "offensive" use of DB in my group. Quite the opposite, my PC scholar is absouetly terrified of getting caught up in combat, his job is to use his spells and knolwedge skills before and after combat to make the rest of the party's life easier and he knows it. The last time he couldn't avoid letting a few enemies get close to him and I reminded him that this would be the perfect opportunity for a DB (three enemies closing in, no allies in range, enough PP left to fry the bad guys) but he declined since that would leave him defenseless for the rest of the encounter so he used telekinisis to push some crates over on the enemies then ran and hid behind the meatshield.

So yeah, I got no problem with DB. Call it waves of dark energy instead of fire if the "fireball" effect bothers you. And bad-guy scholars can't live without it, they would all die in two rounds if the PC's wernt' a little warry of charging them.

Later.

 

[Turim]

Obviously, there are two different aspects of DB that people don't like. One is the pyrotechnic high-magic feel and the other its power.

Changing the type of damage from fire to something else might have consequences. Many of the well-known Hyborian monsters (mummies, frost giants, aberrations, demons) are vulnerable to fire. Some of these are even immune to all physical damage except fire and silver. Even if the party has one or more silver weapons, enemies might sunder them, making DB (and perhaps a few spells) the only realistic hope of victory.

It seems that many people assume that DB is a roaring conflagration, and the description "defensive blast" certainly supports that. However, the rules also say it affects "all creatures", but doesn't mention anything about damaging objects (which could of course be an oversight). Furthermore, it calls for a Fortitude save (instead of the Reflex save common to area effect spells). These two descriptions could easily be interpreted to mean that DB causes something like an internal combustion in its victims. This effect could be quite anonymous or flashy depending on the DM's wishes.

The issue of DB's power is more complicated. In some situations a sorcerer is forced to choose between activating DB preemptively or wait for an enemy to make an attack that could well force a massive damage save the sorcerer will only pass on a natural 20. Although an attempt seems to have been made to allow sorcerers to use DB reactively with a reach weapon, as far as I know it fails because of a "loophole" in the rules for measuring distances.

While it is true that DB can sometimes be used more than once in the same encounter if the sorcerer has Opportunistic Sacrifice, it's still risky. If something goes awry, the sorcerer will be left with very few or no Power Points.

Removing DB will make sorcerers largely defenseless against grappling, since the few spells (in the core book and Scrolls of Skelos) without somatic components are either very limited, or very weak. It will also make them very weak at levels 1-9, since there are few reliable spells at
these levels.

I've seen several people's say DB is too powerful, but rarely why and when. At which levels is it too powerful, in your experience? Is it too powerful compared to the scholar spells, or the other classes? And do you compare it to the best spells and min/maxed warriors, or weak spells and suboptimal warrior builds?

 

[ReptileJK]

*shrug* personally I haven't seen any "offensive" use of DB in my group. Quite the opposite, my PC scholar is absouetly terrified of getting caught up in combat, his job is to use his spells and knolwedge skills before and after combat to make the rest of the party's life easier and he knows it. The last time he couldn't avoid letting a few enemies get close to him and I reminded him that this would be the perfect opportunity for a DB (three enemies closing in, no allies in range, enough PP left to fry the bad guys) but he declined since that would leave him defenseless for the rest of the encounter so he used telekinisis to push some crates over on the enemies then ran and hid behind the meatshield.

So yeah, I got no problem with DB. Call it waves of dark energy instead of fire if the "fireball" effect bothers you. And bad-guy scholars can't live without it, they would all die in two rounds if the PC's wernt' a little warry of charging them.

Later.

This is almost exactly my take on this.

 

[slaughterj]

Changing the type of damage from fire to something else might have consequences. Many of the well-known Hyborian monsters (mummies, frost giants, aberrations, demons) are vulnerable to fire. Some of these are even immune to all physical damage except fire and silver. Even if the party has one or more silver weapons, enemies might sunder them, making DB (and perhaps a few spells) the only realistic hope of victory.

If it's magic, it's typically not considered physical damage, so I don't see how the aforementioned discussion is applicable?

It seems that many people assume that DB is a roaring conflagration, and the description "defensive blast" certainly supports that. However, the rules also say it affects "all creatures", but doesn't mention anything about damaging objects (which could of course be an oversight). Furthermore, it calls for a Fortitude save (instead of the Reflex save common to area effect spells). These two descriptions could easily be interpreted to mean that DB causes something like an internal combustion in its victims. This effect could be quite anonymous or flashy depending on the DM's wishes.

Some good ideas

Although an attempt seems to have been made to allow sorcerers to use DB reactively with a reach weapon, as far as I know it fails because of a "loophole" in the rules for measuring distances.

Care to clarify?

I've seen several people's say DB is too powerful, but rarely why and when. At which levels is it too powerful, in your experience? Is it too powerful compared to the scholar spells, or the other classes? And do you compare it to the best spells and min/maxed warriors, or weak spells and suboptimal warrior builds?

I'm more concerned about its basis in Howard's Conan, rather than the power, per my original posting of this thread, especially given the flashiness as it is portrayed, but also due to the offensive way in which it can be used (since it is a free action). It's more a matter of consistency than power for me.

 

[Mayhem]

If it bothered my unduly, rather than defensive blast, I'd simply rule that a sorcerer, when struck, could cast any spell that he knows with a range of touch on his attacker as a free reaction.

This would make many sorcerers quite easy to slay in melee, but if you know somebody can slay with a touch, you would be very wary of going anywhere near them.

 

[Turim]

I won't use the quote button, since the last time I tried that I messed it up . Regarding physical damage I might agree with you Slaughterj, but the aberration type (SoS, page 34) says "immunity to all physical attack forms except for silver and fire". This could indicate that both normal and magical fire (and by extension cold, acid, lightning, tentacles and so forth)are physical attack forms, at least for this purpose. I guess this is up to the individual DM.

DB can be used as a free action, and it can even be used in conjunction with an Attack of Opportunity or a readied action. This means that a sorcerer who wields a staff or other weapon with 10' reach can use DB reactively when enemies trigger the AoO. This suits what seems to be the intention of DB, but it can be exploited by approaching the sorcerer diagonally. In D&D 3.5 weapon reach is excempt from the "second square diagonally counts as 15 feet" rule for precisely this reason, but I can't find this rule in Conan. Even if it's there it won't help since DB still counts the second diagonal square as 15 feet. So Mongoose needs to use the 3.5 rules for reach and errata DB's area of effect for DB to have the intended effect. Of course the staff/AoO/DB tactic can also be foiled by someone with ranged attacks, 10' reach, Improved Mobility, or a high Tumble bonus.

 

[slaughterj]

Gotcha on the reach thing, I would just house rule that easily enough, but I use hexes, so it's not an issue

 

[LokiOne]

I don't have a problem at all with Defensive Blast. It should be used as a last resort though, and there should be rules to reflect this (Maybe used once a day or there are some penalties, such as temporary CON loss @ -1 point, per day per useage. It seems a little ridiculous to use 6 defensive blasts per battle or so !).

Sorcerors in Conan need to be played carefully (Esp. NPC's), to ensure that their opponents don't get to 'trash' then so easilly. My first NPC sorceror went down in a screaming heap (literally!), and I forgot to attempt to let him dominate and influence the Party from afar and behind a wall of lesser servitors and guardians - possibly misinformation and misdirection as well. Encounters with him/her should be well planned with (hopefully!) plenty of preparatory spells and defenses in place. But .... I digress ...

Defensive Blast should be the last straw, so that the PC's feel that they really had to work hard to finally get the chance up close, to hack the mage's head off (at last).
I agree that the effects could be varied - at least in 'colour text'. I certainly don't relate the Blast to a fireball like effect. It could even be invisible, like a pulse of magnetic energy. Damage could be of the 'stun' type, ie: debilitaing but non-lethal damage (Zero hit points/ left for dead = unconcious/ beyond -10 is a coma).

Plenty of time for the sorceror's minions to scoop up the helpless and transfer them to his private summoning chamber .... he - he

 

[thulsa]

If I decide to "fix" Defensive Blast, I'm considering the following implementation. Feedback is welcome...

Variant Rule: Desperate Blast

The purpose of this variant is twofold. First, to make Defensive Blast more like it was intended (as a last-resort defense tactic, not as an offensive fireball-like attack). Second, to make the visible effect more dark and sinister, keeping with the swords & sorcery feel of the Hyborian Age.

Thanks to SableWyvern for useful ideas on some of the effects.

- Defensive Blast is renamed Desperate Blast
- A Desperate Blast is not a fireball. It is a last-resort tactic for the sorcerer, invoking dark forces the sorcerer can barely control.
- Desperate Blast can only be used once per day. It uses up all of the sorcerer's remaining Power Points.
- Using Desperate Blast is a free action. It can be used as an attack of opportunity or as a readied action.
- Desperate Blast affects all creatures within a 10 foot radius. It does not affect the sorcerer himself.
- Scholars who do not know any sorcery styles or advanced spells, or non-scholars with the Dabbler feat, cannot use Desperate Blast.
- A scholar who unleashes a Desperate Blast must roll a Concentration check (DC 15). Success means the sorcerer can select the specific effect from the list below. Failure means that the specific effect is determined randomly (1d8):

1. Writhing tentacles emerge from the floor, walls, or from the body of the sorcerer (physical damage)
2. Howling black winds form a vortex around the sorcerer (cold)
3. Noxious purple vapours billow forth from the sorcerer (poison)
4. Tortured spectral shapes fly around the sorcerer, wailing in agony (sonic)
5. Weird tongues of green flame surround the sorcerer (fire)
6. Black rays of energy shoot from the sorcerer's hands or body (negative energy)
7. Sparks of blue-green lightning blast from the sorcerer's eyes (lightning)
8. Gobs of caustic purple ooze spatter from the sorcerer's mouth (acid)

- All effects cause 1d6 points of damage of the specified type per Power Point expended.
- Targets get a Fortitude save for half damage. The sorcerer sets the DC of the saving throw using his magic attack roll.
- All effects, regard of type, can cause Massive Damage saves if the attack inflicts 20 or more points of damage.
- Note that if the sorcerer has the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat, he may be able to regain Power Points from slain targets, if any. He is still limited to one use of Desperate Blast per day.

(Note: I do not see any need to further penalize the sorcerer by forcing Corruption saves, draining Con, causing insanity, etc. for using the Desperate Blast.)

- thulsa

 

[René]

Desperate Blast looks really good: let's hope that Mongoose will get this in the upcoming Scholar & Co. Classes Handbook!

 

[LokiOne]

The new look DB is great .... feels much more like a last resort thing now.

Good to see lots of thought provoking contributions to the Forum. I will be using this variation in My Conan game.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I always modify every game I use. [I more or less rewrote the Sorcery rules, but that's me] So I borrowed a little from Mercedes Lackey and remade Defensive Blast and named it 'Final Strike"- which is a name that will make most PCs think twice about using it.

Final Strike is supposed to represent a sorcerer's last stand or heroic sacrifice. As the name implies, it's usually fatal. Sorcerers normally channel the power of magic cautiously, knowing that handling the nearly infinite power of the raw stuff of Creation can burn them out in heartbeat if used unwisely. Final Strike is where the sorcerer releases all the safeguards and lets the Power flow unchecked.

When done, the sorcerer makes a Fortitude check equal to 15 + the amount of Power Points they are channelling. If failed, the sorcererr dies, consumed by his or her own Power. If passed, the Sorcerer collapses for 24-Con hours and is reduced to 1 in all attributes, which will recover normally. The kicker is this- if the player rolls exactly the number needed to make his save, his or her character has burned out his magic potential and may never use sorcery again. Now there's a serious side effect that players may not want to risk.

If a sorcerer desires, they may choose to be destroyed by the blast and add Power Points to their total Final Strike equal to as if they had sacrificed themselves. [Bleed Dry and Ritual Sacrifice adds its usual benefits, but I really don't think that anyone is going to have the time- or is crazy enough- to use Tormented Sacrifice on themselves] They automatically die of course and rarely even leave behind a body. As an alternate rule, if they know some appropiate Curse or similiar spell such as Black Plague, they can use their Power Points to fuel this spell at the target(s) of their choice. This is of course, the traditional 'death curse'.

Of course, a well minded sorcerer could use this to fuel a benefical spell, in which case it could be called Final Gift and is a truly touching thing to do. In the Hyborian world though, I really don't see this happening too often. Really big smoking craters and entire towns turned into rampaging werebeats- a little more common maybe.

Raven

 

[thulsa]

I borrowed a little from Mercedes Lackey and remade Defensive Blast and named it 'Final Strike"- which is a name that will make most PCs think twice about using it.

Final Strike is supposed to represent a sorcerer's last stand or heroic sacrifice. As the name implies, it's usually fatal.

I think that's a little too harsh on the poor scholar. One thing is to limit the blast to once per day to restrict abuse (that is, to prevent it from being used offensively), but to basically make this a once-in-a-(short)-lifetime ability is a big nerf for the scholar class.

Of course, that's just my opinion. You may want a different feel in your campaign...

You realize that we're easily talking about Fort DC 35+ saves for a typical 6th-level scholar who's drained a few people to max his PP?



- thulsa

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Sorcerers [as opposed to non-magical Scholars] are not meant for long or uneventful lives. You want an easier to handle character- be a Soldier. Nor is Final Strike/Defensive Blast supposed to be an offensive capability- it is a case of final desperation. The sorcerers in my campaign learn swiftly to get a level or two of Barbarian, Soldier, Borderer or Noble to keep themselves alive.

Before you claim I am anti-sorcerer, I would note that the central character in my campaign is a Stygian Borderer/Scholar and is in fact the only character to have survived from the beginning of the campaign. Why? He learned his limitations and knew that sometimes, you need to run. All the gung ho get 'em type are pushing up daisies.

Much more realistic that way.

Raven who know a moment of discretion is better than a hour of rolling up a new character.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I am not completely cruel to Scholars though. I removed the Arcane Spell failure side effect from armor- I let poor finances and the usual low strength of Scholars be the determining factor. I also remade the Sorcery system to allow more spells of moderate power. It might be canon, but there's usually only two spells types in Conan- cantrips and world threatening power. Plus, since I am ral life magician myself, I like to throw a little realism into fictional magic.

Raven, studying

 

[Trodax]

Ooops! I posted in an old thread by mistake, meant to post in that other Defensive Blast thread. Damn, I'm sloppy.

Oh, well bringing this old one to life might be interesting for someone.

 

[Sutek]

Interesting?

My nightmares have started recurring already...

:shock: