Deckplan Illustrations: What is the issue??

[kristof65]

Finally, there definitely needs to be some more coordination between the persons doing the exterior views, the stats and the deckplans - or at least another person with the appropriate skills to doublecheck these things and make sure the obvious discrepencies are fixed.

Some of the deckplans have been compared to the stats and adjusted before publication.

But obviously not all of them. IMO, that should be an important step in the pre-production.

 

[DFW]

Ultimately the 2D map is eps or ai so it will scale 1:1 if you like

That's why I think it is increasingly important to move this stuff over to digital publishing. Almost everyone now can print at home what they need as they play/GM.

 

[captrooper]

Not sure what happened - I think edit broke!

 

[captrooper]

Not sure what happened - I think edit broke!

 

[captrooper]

Ultimately the 2D map is eps or ai so it will scale 1:1 if you like

That's why I think it is increasingly important to move this stuff over to digital publishing. Almost everyone now can print at home what they need as they play/GM.

Print is still needed - at good quality.

But as you say, the pdf version should always be printable - and at 300dpi (at the scales of 12.5mm to 1.5 metres and 25mm to 1.5 metres). And instructions for printing at each scale should be included every time.

Other scales anyone?

 

[AndrewW]

Print is still needed - at good quality.

But as you say, the pdf version should always be printable - and at 300dpi (at the scales of 12.5mm to 1.5 metres and 25mm to 1.5v metres).

Other scales anyone?

As long as it's a vector image not bitmap it can scale without loss of quality so doesn't really need to be specific to a particular scale.

 

[captrooper]

I've confused myself (and I should know better)...

Print is still needed - at good quality.

But as you say, the pdf version should always be printable - and at 300dpi (at the scales of 12.5mm to 1.5 metres and 25mm to 1.5v metres).

Other scales anyone?

As long as it's a vector image not bitmap it can scale without loss of quality so doesn't really need to be specific to a particular scale.

So the Mongoose ships... There're not scalable as vectors (so are not postscripts etc)? I mean in the pdf versions of the books?

I only have print versions so far...

 

[AndrewW]

So the Mongoose ships... There're not scalable as vectors (so are not postscripts etc)? I mean in the pdf versions of the books?

I only have print versions so far...

Currently no. Though a lot of the recent Signs & Portents ones and the two in Secrets of the Ancient part 2 are vector images and will scale fine.

 

[far-trader]

Currently no. Though a lot of the recent Signs & Portents ones and the two in Secrets of the Ancient part 2 are vector images and will scale fine.

That's good, nay, GREAT news! It needs to shouted from the rooftops

It wouldn't go amiss for some who see the new products to post some reviews around highlighting the fact...

 

[mechascorpio]

They aren't low resolution, just happens with larger ships as they get squashed down to fit whatever room they allocate to them. They where done in Photoshop and sent in as jpeg images, but larger then you'll actually see in the books.

Well then they're being "squashed" very badly. And if it's for print, they should be TIFs. And that still doesn't explain why the text in the legends is nearly illegible, or why the map on page 12 is so poor. And, finally, if the same files are provided in the PDFs, they're not going to look any better if I print them off at home.

Kristof65 (above) has it completely right: Mongoose really needs to present a standard for these images. And when it comes to larger ships, go to a more general layout. And stop doing the text boxes and labels in the same application if it's not going to print well. I don't understand why there is any debate about this. At all.

 

[AndrewW]

Well then they're being "squashed" very badly. And if it's for print, they should be TIFs. And that still doesn't explain why the text in the legends is nearly illegible, or why the map on page 12 is so poor. And, finally, if the same files are provided in the PDFs, they're not going to look any better if I print them off at home.

Agreed, jpeg with its lossy compression isn't the best of choices. Legends are right in the same bitmap so yes that part gets squished as well. Nope, wont be any different in the PDF's.

Kristof65 (above) has it completely right: Mongoose really needs to present a standard for these images. And when it comes to larger ships, go to a more general layout. And stop doing the text boxes and labels in the same application if it's not going to print well. I don't understand why there is any debate about this. At all.

Who said there was any debate?

The deckplans themselves are fine, it's just what happens to them. Bitmaps really aren't the best choice but that's what was used. All this applies to the regular Mongoose Publishing products though, I don't know what was used for Crowded Hours.

 

[Gee4orce]

My biggest gripe with deckplans - and I've said this plenty of times here before - is deckplans that just don't add any value. I don't need pages, and pages (and, sometimes, pages) of deckplans that just don't seem to show anything except empty spaces.

Before drawing a deckplan I think you need to seriously ask "is this going to actually add anything to this product" ? It's even acceptable to, say, plan just a couple of decks and leave the other's undetailed if only those decks have anything interesting.

 

[far-trader]

My biggest gripe with deckplans - and I've said this plenty of times here before - is deckplans that just don't add any value. I don't need pages, and pages (and, sometimes, pages) of deckplans that just don't seem to show anything except empty spaces.

I think deckplan artists would like some clarification of this statement. If you don't mind

Do you mean for example you don't want an empty stateroom? Instead you want the furnishings drawn in? To what detail level? Simple outlines of the placement? Or photo-realistic depiction showing the choice of colour of the bed cover, the wood grain of the desk, and the pile of the carpet and pattern of the area rug? Or something in between simple and photo realistic?

Before drawing a deckplan I think you need to seriously ask "is this going to actually add anything to this product" ? It's even acceptable to, say, plan just a couple of decks and leave the other's undetailed if only those decks have anything interesting.

Ah, but in who's opinion are certain decks interesting

Personally I don't want photo-realism. Except maybe in a print product. It just drinks too much ink and makes standard paper wet and wrinkled. I just want a spark for my imagination and the players, and the ability to provide my own details. A place to have an encounter. A shootout, a burglary, a meeting, whatever.

A blank stateroom is enough, IF it is properly sized. An empty drives area is enough IF it is properly sized and the drive sizes are available for me to add. An empty cargo area is the most sensible, so I or my players can fill it as desired.

A small ship needs to be completely drawn out, AFTER being well and thoroughly THOUGHT out. From the hull outline to each area of each deck. In a scale and resolution suitable for printing out at miniature scales BUT still clear and legible at a scale preferably suitable for printing on a single page per deck, something in the range of 1.5m squares being 5mm or 1/4"

A large ship needs only the general deck layouts in a clear scale and a few key areas (or parts of them even) as examples in the detailed small ship scales above. Again the whole needs to be well imagined first.

...I'm sure I had more to say but I got distracted, lost my train of thought, and have to go for now.

 

[nats]

Besides GURPS, what books in Traveller history had excellent deck plans. I'm currently working on my own and if all I have to go on is Mongoose's, mine are probably going to look like Mongoose's. So where could one find, IYO, the best deck plans (besides GURPS)?

The best ship plans are to be found in Classic Traveller Supp 7 Traders and Gunboats and also adventures such as Adventure 10 Safari Ship. Cant beat those for artistic merit - they just look 'right'.

I have been wanting proper 15mm deck plans of Classic Traveller ships for years but no=one seems to do any - Gurps are too large at 28mm and the plans in the books are too small (ok for 6mm figures though). I've generally had to draw my own on A1 sheets (which being an architect is no massive trouble with Autocad or using pencils/pens and freehand (freehand is far nicer looking than any computer generated plan).

Although the plans in IISS Ship Files were quite good as well and they at least showed computer terminals.

Problem with all deckplans is they never show furniture/beds/freshers/equipment/tables etc that really add to the personality of the thing!

 

[AndrewW]

Problem with all deckplans is they never show furniture/beds/freshers/equipment/tables etc that really add to the personality of the thing!

Beds for the staterooms are shown on the Mongoose Publishing deckplans. Tables have made it into some.

 

[hdan]

I'd say that for me, any ship up to maybe 1000dt needs a detailed floor plan. Above that, I'd just as soon have a "block diagram" that mentions engineering, bridge, weapons, living, cargo a fuel sections, but doesn't actually "drill down" to the details for all those sections.

For example, a 1000dt trader could have a "cutaway" view that showed where the decks were, but only floor plans of the bridge and staterooms areas, and maybe engineering. The rest are just big empty rooms or tanks full of fuel - only interesting for their overall shape.

Smaller ships, like "adventurer" class ships (up to 500 dt at the most) should have full floor plans, considering that they are likely to be used as settings, and they're still small enough to fit on one or two pages with reasonably sized squares.

I guess that narrows down my preference to a simple rule - if you can't fit the whole ship's deckplans on two pages with 1/4" squares, then don't map the whole ship. Give us a cutaway and maps of the "interesting" parts (bridge, engineering(maybe), staterooms, etc.). It's also ok to give a repeated "exemplar" deck like "cargo decks 1-4 look like this", as do the 2 fuel decks, or "passenger decks 1 and 2 follow this plan" type notations. If the GM needs to flesh out the entire ship, he can cut/paste all those parts together himself.

This goes double for large warships where whole decks are nothing but munitions or particle bays. It's fine to have the ship block diagram mention these decks as "particle bay deck - 48xParticle bays and 80 tons of sandcaster storage" or something like that. In these cases, a few words are worth a thousand pixels.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

I have been wanting proper 15mm deck plans of Classic Traveller ships for years but no=one seems to do any

The Far Trader and the small craft here:

http://traveller.mu.org/archive/deckplans/

seem to be 15mm. You might need an A3 printer for the Far Trader though.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rinku]

Besides GURPS, what books in Traveller history had excellent deck plans. I'm currently working on my own and if all I have to go on is Mongoose's, mine are probably going to look like Mongoose's. So where could one find, IYO, the best deck plans (besides GURPS)?

For my money, the very best deckplans were the ones Digest Group Publications did for the Free Trader Starship Operations Manual.

Of the classic GDW ones, Leviathan stands out in terms of layout quality, though it is a bloody ugly ship*

(*which is no criticism of its functionality - it's unstreamlined)

 

[nats]

I have been wanting proper 15mm deck plans of Classic Traveller ships for years but no=one seems to do any

The Far Trader and the small craft here:

http://traveller.mu.org/archive/deckplans/

seem to be 15mm. You might need an A3 printer for the Far Trader though.

Best regards,

Ewan

Hmmm theyre not great most of them and no room labels either. I would be quite interested in the liner if I knew what was what. I will probably just continue drawing my own least then I get bulkheads looking like bulkheads and cockpits looking interesting. I hate seeing cockpits with a big space and two chairs stuck in the middle of it. Does nothing for me that. What we need is the bloke who did the Star Wars Cutaway Spaceships book do some Traveller hand drawn ship plans - now they would be impressive!! Maybe I should do a hand drawn set of plans myself and see if I can sell them?

 

[far-trader]

For my money, the very best deckplans were the ones Digest Group Publications did for the Free Trader Starship Operations Manual.

I hope I'm not the one breaking this to you but... that deckplan sucks. It is one of the examples of giant fixtures (measure the beds) and several other mistakes I ranted on about. If you change the scale from the listed one, and thus make the squares 1m instead of the accepted and noted 1.5m you can get it closer to sensible. Closer, but not there, and only by introducing other issues of wrongness.

It's a beautiful piece of blueprint art though, I've had it laminated and on my wall most of the time since it came out for that reason. But as an accurate deck plan, no, far from the best. And it saddens me greatly. It COULD have been a truly great piece with a little work