Decados fleet.

[Rick]

but he keeps his shields from all but the EM pulse guns

Now I am confused, lol. The Decados favoured armament is the blaster, which also has burn-out, just like a laser and, unlike a laser - it takes down 2 shields each hit due to the multihit/burnout combo, similiarly to an EM pulse gun.
I've played as Hawkwood against Decados at frigate level and, while I'm making holes in Decados ships, those same Decados ships are making bigger ones in mine, lol. Precise and Accurate mean that more AD will land on a Decados ship, and those that do have a higher chance of causing a critical, but of the slightly less hits that hit back, each is doing around double damage with a 1 in 6 chance of a critical.

 

[katadder]

at frigate as we said al-malik win that but i'm also on destroyers if you see the example and destroyers have slug guns.
on frigates you have missiles ignoring shields. also as said due to the range superiority of missiless the hawkwood fleet will be broadsiding you as soon as you enter range. the turn you enter laser range with your 1/45 frigate you will against a decent player only likely have your turrets to play with and that on average rolls requires 3 frigates to even damage one hawkwood for 1 point. meanwhile the hawkwood if using 3 frigate hit you with 6 missiles rerolling misses and 12AD needing 3s to hit. thats 4.5 missile hits and precise lasers meaning 9-10 damage and a few crits thrown in there. yes once the decados broadside comes into action they outgun hawkwood but you have pretty much lost a frigate out of that 3 on 3 anyway. especially if the hawkwood got lucky 1st turn and got init and so got a missile shot in without a decados response.

its about manouvering and using your range. straight up decados does have more dice but they have to get them into position and 1/45 speed 8 against 2/45 speed 12 is not as easy as it seems.

 

[Rick]

its about manouvering and using your range

Yes, I know. I've learned a thing or 2 about starship combat from playing various starship combat games for about 27 years (Star Frontiers Knight Hawks, and many others). In case you were wondering, it's also about attrition and trying to achieve an unanswerable alpha strike! What I'm trying to say is that if we were both chatting about the relative merits of Hawkwood vs. Decados ships, on paper - I'd agree with you, lol! However, I've also been on both sides of the fleet and I can only say what my experience has been - Decados will beat an equal points value of Hawkwood or Hazat ships at destroyer or frigate level.
At the top of this thread, I was asking for anyones experiences of facing them or taking them ON THE TABLE, not on paper, lol!

 

[katadder]

Well you have had replies from 3 playtesters who frequent these forums so it's not all paper

 

[Rick]

Well you have had replies from 3 playtesters who frequent these forums so it's not all paper

I know, katadder - it's probably my fault, lol!
I guess I was hoping for "I took the decados fleet up against such and such a fleet and I had a similiar/ a different experience" not "this is what should happen if you take a decados fleet up against any other fleet". :?

I shall persevere - I'll be fielding the Decados against an Al Malik fleet at some point and my Hawkwood one against the Hazat. Adding Carriers and Cruisers to the mix may alter the results slightly so we shall see! :roll:

 

[Stormrider]

I did a few tests last night and because of the way initiative works I don't think the range argument, or at least the 24/28" part of it, has too much relevance. Taking Hawkwood and Decados frigates as examples if decados move first, they move one ship at half speed, then Hawkwood decide between coming into range to fire or staying back. If they come into range to fire then the rest of the Decados fleet move forwards full speed, possibly turning upto 45 degrees to get a broadside in. This opens up the whole of the Decados fleet as targets but means that one Hawkwood frigate is going to take a heavy hit.

The other option open to Decados is going All Ahead Full (or is it All Power to Engines, I can't remember, extra 50% speed anyway). They lose 2pts of shield of every ship but can move forwards 12", which when deploying 36" apart (and yes, not always directly opposite...) allows them to close range very quickly. I honestly don't think, given that nearly every weapon has burnout or ignores shields, that losing 2 shields is much of an issue... infact against Decados I'd probably do it every turn to try to gain extra fire arcs since -2 shields out of a potential 12 damage from their frigate is minimal.

I agree that it will be turn 2 before the 16" broadsides from the destroyers come into play, but to be fair, they can expect to do an average of 12 SUCCESSFUL hits on a frigate and 9 on a destroyer, and anyone smart will use the em pulse guns and blasters to take down the shields first (remind me, why would any ship fit em pulse guns rather than blasters? They do exactly the same thing except the blasters do double hits to hull also...).

I appreciate that 3 playtesters have replied, it would be nice if the playtesters might be open to the idea that us mere non-playtesters with only a few decades of wargaming experience might find something in the game that might need a second look and possibly a tweak (I'm pretty sure I posted a couple of weeks back saying the Mantis was overpowered).

 

[Greg Smith]

This playtesters thoughts:

I do think the multi-hit is a probably the best weapon trait, particularly in smaller games. However, playing against a fleet with scores of lasers will bring an eye-watering number of criticals. And the Al-malik ability to crit-fish is not to be sneered at, although it does require luck.

I do think the Decados fleet lacks range. The Mantis does not suffer that problem. The galliot, destroyer, cruiser and dreadnought do. That is not to say I think they are bad ships, I think if and when they get in range they have the ability to do monstrous damage.

 

[Rick]

Hmm - what it boils down to is whether you can get the destroyer and higher level ships into range without suffering crippling damage first. In theory it's iffy, in my experience it's not that difficult (at least with the destroyer - if I use cruisers and above I'll share the info) - what balances it is the higher hull score I think. As to eye-watering numbers of criticals - if you roll enough hits you'll get the same, lol! And decados can get enough hits when they're within range! :?

 

[Clanger]

With a Precise weapon the chances of getting a crit are 1 in 3. The chances in getting a crit are 1 in 6 with a normal weapon.

In my experience you get more crits with a Precise weapon than rolling more dice. Also with rolling more dice you get more chances of rolling 1's for 0 damage so it evens out (Precise weapons will always do 1 damage).

 

[Stormrider]

and with enough dice needing 2+, crits eventually become irrelevant.

If you're running adrift, do I really care that your at -2 speed and have inaccurate weapons?

Maybe it's just the way me and Rick play but we focus fire heavily and damage from crits play a very small part in the game, though we do only play 750pts and both agree that at that level anything cruiser and above would be both unreasonable and also foolhardy. Usually when we fire at something it either shrug it off or goes down in a blaze of clique'd lines which define 'interesting'... "oh my god, oh my god. We're all going to die..."

 

[Rick]

I was about to say that I think they are about even, Clanger - with blasters and slug guns rolling a few more ones, which has meant that blasters and slug guns have have inflicted lots more damage, but about the same number of crits. And, as Stormrider points out - I really was trying to kill his ships before he got to boarding range (not an unreasonable tactic against Hazat, lol!).

What I think you may have hit on is why Decados ships are less effective at higher level than ships with lasers - it's the difference in hull scores. The increase from 4 to 5 is minimal for an accurate weapon like the laser, but a big difference for weapons without that trait. This is probably why we've been getting the results we've got at this level - using cruisers and such like might well even things up.