Dealing with large crowds in game...

[flatscan]

How do you deal with crowds in game? Say for instance, you have a pursuit between a PC and an nPeep through a crowded city street, what type of rolls are you looking at? Opposed Strength checks to push through the crowd? Make every square cost double movement? How do you adjudicate situations like the above example?

 

[The King]

The best may be to make a detailled map and role-play the scene, so that the players can use everything (booth, etc.) at their advantage.

You can also use an adapted car pursuit system from Call of Cthulhu.

 

[flatscan]

The best may be to make a detailled map and role-play the scene, so that the players can use everything (booth, etc.) at their advantage.

You can also use an adapted car pursuit system from Call of Cthulhu.

Thanks for the quick response! Yeah, I'm big on the map aspect. Sometimes I go crazy with e-adventure tiles and photoshop, and kill my printer with page after page of custom battle map. Other times markers and a wet-erase grid map will have to do. I'd rather have some sort of system for gaining and losing ground then straight up role-play so the chance element comes into play and I don't favor either side. How does the car pursuit system work for Call of Cthulhu (d20 or BRP?)? Does it take into account slogging through a large group of people (basically obstacles)? And is there nothing already established in d20?

 

[Krushnak]

usually something like movement at 3/4 or 1/2 and tumble, climb or jump checks to avoid obstacles and move through the crowd without penalty. and also any crazyness that comes to mind at the time or the players suggest.

 

[VincentDarlage]

How do you deal with crowds in game? Say for instance, you have a pursuit between a PC and an nPeep through a crowded city street, what type of rolls are you looking at? Opposed Strength checks to push through the crowd? Make every square cost double movement? How do you adjudicate situations like the above example?

I put in a section (adapted Open Game Content from FFG's "City Works") on that for the Shem-Gateway to the South sourcebook, but it was edited out. I don't know how to format a table in this, but here is the section. I had been using those rules for a while in my own Conan campaign.

City-State Crowds
Many Shemite adventures take place in the great cities of Shem. The table here can be used to determine how many people are out and about. Apply a -10 modifier at night unless the area is thick with entertainment at night. During festival periods, apply a +10 modifier. In addition, slum districts receive a -2 modifier; karum districts receive a +10 modifier; craftsman districts receive a +5 modifier; and temple districts receive a +2 modifier.

Modified D20 Roll Crowd Density Cover/ Concealment Speed Sight Traffic
6 or less Empty None -0 Normal There is no one around.
7-11 Sparse None -0 Normal A mere handful of people are around. Roll 1d10 to determine the number of people if needed. Some will be lone individuals, others will be travelling in small groups.
12-16 Moderate Soft -5 60 ft. The characters manoeuvre through the crowd fairly easily but they are never more than 10 feet away from anyone.
17-21 Dense Improved/ Concealed -10 30 ft. Pedestrian and vehicle traffic is heavy. Characters constantly have to move around people and obstacles to get through to their destination.
22+ Packed Total -20 10 ft. The press of bodies is particularly dense. Vehicles and mounts have a difficult time getting through the crowds and will have periods of zero movement.

Crowd Density: This column defines the density for use in Urban Chases. At the Games Master's option, the crowd's density automatically drops one level per round once a fight breaks out. The people in the crowd try to move away from violence. The crowd may panic (see the section titled And the Crowd Goes Wild for panic effects).
Cover/Concealment: The crowd provides cover to those who stand within it depending on how dense it is. The listed cover or concealment applies to all targets that are in the crowd, even adjacent ones. The press and push of the crowd makes most attacks difficult. The effects of cover and concealment are covered in Conan the Roleplaying Game's combat rules.
Speed: A crowd's density limits movement. The speed modifier applies to all creatures within the crowd, though no character's speed can be reduced to less than 5 feet.
Sight: A crowd's density limits line of sight. The sight distance is the maximum range at which characters can see any targets. Beyond that, any creature of the same size or smaller than the members of the crowd is impossible to see. Larger creatures can be sighted as normal.

And the Crowd Goes Wild
Sometimes, panic can cause a crowd to run out of control. A crowd's density increases by one category as the crowd becomes more active and frenetic. Each round, characters in a panicked mob must make either a Strength or Balance check (DC 10) to avoid being knocked prone. Prone characters suffer 1d6 points of non-lethal damage per round due to trampling. Standing up requires a Strength or Dexterity check (DC 10). Unconscious characters continue to suffer damage until they are killed. If the characters engage in a fight within a crowd, there is a 10% chance per round that the crowd panics. Any loud, spectacular spell or alchemical effect increases this chance to 50% during the round in which they are used. Effects that have an obviously deadly effect on a crowd automatically cause a crowd to panic.

Urban Chases
Many adventures in cities and other crowded environments involve chases; either the villains spot the heroes and make a break for freedom or they decide to run after the heroes. Chases through crowded streets makes for interesting terrain. Speeds are usually down as characters vault over wagons, slide under horses, dodge around people and weave around obstacles stationary and mobile. In an urban environment, simply using movement rules does not work well because these rules do not involve the random elements in play in an urban chase. Some basic rules are given here to resolve exciting and dramatic chases. These are just mechanics – the description of the chase is in the hands of the Games Master.

Chase Score and Speed
To begin with, each character needs a chase score. This is equal to the character's speed divided by 5 plus his Dexterity modifier. If a character is mounted, use his riding beast's speed. Note the modifiers to speed listed in the Crowd table.

Carts, chariots or wagons move as the animal pulling it. The carts and any cargo count as dragged objects for the purpose of determining speed and maximum load. If more than one animal is pulling the vehicle, divide the weight of the vehicle and its cargo among each creature to determine their total load and speed.

Using the Environment
Next, the environment comes into play. The more twisty and confusing the streets, the harder they are to navigate. Also, crowded streets are more difficult to move through (see City-State Crowds on page XX for a random table of crowds). Clear, straight boulevards, such as the main streets in most Shemite cities, allow a faster, more agile character to easily outdistance slower followers.

Urban Environment Condition Chase Score Modifier
Narrow, twisty streets -2
Average streets +0
Straight, wide streets +2
Packed (21+ on Crowd table) -8
Densely crowded (16-20 on Crowd table) -4
Moderately crowded (11-15 on Crowd table) -2
Sparsely crowded (6-10 on Crowd table) +0
Empty (5 or less on Crowd table) +2
Random Element (Optional) Roll 1d4. On an even result, events favour the prey, making the result a positive for them. On an odd result, events seem to favour the hunters, granting them the result as a positive modifier.

Beginning the Chase
There are two groups to a chase – the hunters and the prey. The hunters are the pursuers and the prey are those being chased. Determine how far apart the prey and the hunters are. Each round, the participants in a chase use the double move action.

Closing The Gap
Each hunter makes a Chase Check by rolling a d20 + their individual Chase Scores, comparing the result to the prey's Chase Defence. Chase Defence equals 10 + the prey's Chase Score.

If this check succeeds, then the hunter moves a total distance equal to his speed closer to the prey. If the hunter catches or overtakes his target, their actions are then resolved using the standard combat rules. If the prey manages to move more than 100 feet away from the hunters then stop combat and return to the chase system. If the check fails, all parties make their double move as normal.

Chase Manoeuvres
The process detailed here assumes that the prey and the hunter take no special actions to improve their chances of success. There are a variety of tactics either side can use to escape or overtake the other. Each participant may opt to use an action and resolve its effects in initiative order. Characters may delay their actions to see the results of their friends' and enemies' moves as normal.

Daring Manoeuvre: The hunter or the prey tries an outrageous stunt to gain an advantage when using the daring manoeuvre tactic. He may leap onto a passing wagon and ride it for a short time, vault over a wall or scramble up the side of a building and climb over the roof. In any case, one party attempts to increase his speed or gain an advantage by selecting a risky but potentially rewarding path. The character attempting this action must make a Balance, Tumble or other appropriate check against DC 20. On a success, he gains a +4 bonus to his chase score for the next check. On a failure, he sustains a -4 penalty on the next check. The hunter sustains the penalty to his check. The prey's chase score is lowered for purposes of determining the hunter's check DC.

Obstacles: This option allows the quarry to make the chase more difficult for the hunters by throwing obstacles in their way. A character may push over a pile of baskets for sale in a market, knock over people in a crowd to start a fight or spook a horse and make it charge into a crowd. This option only works in areas that qualify for a negative chase modifier due to narrow streets or crowded conditions. The prey must make a Strength check (DC 10) to create an obstacle. If he succeeds, the hunters suffer -2 penalties to their chase scores for the next check. Otherwise they gain +2 bonuses as the prey wastes time in an ineffectual attempt to delay them.

Push a Mount: Characters mounted on horses and other animals or riding carts or wagons pulled by beasts of burden can try to push them using Ride or Handle Animal. With a successful check with that skill (DC 15) they gain a +2 bonus or increase their chase DCs by 2 for their next chase checks. There is no penalty for failing this check but each time a character tries to use a skill in this manner after the first attempt the character suffers a cumulative -1 penalty to the check as the mount wears down.

Tactical Options: Once two groups draw near, there are several actions they are likely to take to stop one or the other. Any attempts to tackle a creature should be resolved with the rules for grappling. The tackler simply charges and then attempts the grapple with his target.

Driving a Vehicle: A driver must spend a move-equivalent action to direct the animals pulling a chariot, wagon or cart each round. If the character does not spend an action to do this, the cart continues ahead at its current speed. Determine the direction it takes upon coming to an intersection at random. So long as the animal can see where they are heading, they stop or move to avoid (equal chance of either) any obstacles.

Any creature on a moving cart must make a Balance check (DC 10) before its actions for the round or suffer a -2 penalty to all skill checks and attacks as the cart bumps and shudders down the road. Leaping into a wagon requires a Jump check (DC determined by the type of jump and distance) and a Balance check (DC 15) to remain standing. On a failed Balance check, the character falls prone. Jumping onto the back of a horse, donkey or other creature pulling a vehicle requires a Balance check (DC 20) to avoid falling off the animal. Falling from a moving wagon causes damage as if the character fell a distance equal to the vehicle's current speed.

15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson
Modern System Reference Document Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker
City Works Copyright 2003 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc., Mike Mearls

 

[flatscan]

That is exactly what I was wanting. Thanks Vincent!

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Wow! Yet again, Thanks!! 8)

 

[Hervé]

Darlage... What else?

 

[Evil_Trevor]

Hi,

Here are some of the die rolls I use for city based chase scenes

Knowledge Local - Avoid dead ends and find short cuts, Both chased and chaser can use a knowledge local roll.

Hide and spot rolls opposed to keep sight of a fleeing quarry

Reflex saves to avoid obstacles other than people

The trick is to use these randomly rather than every round (i.e. on a 1-2 on a d6 ask for one or more of these rolls, on a 6 ask for all of them !)

Trevor.

 

[Giavonn]

How do you deal with crowds in game? Say for instance, you have a pursuit between a PC and an nPeep through a crowded city street, what type of rolls are you looking at? Opposed Strength checks to push through the crowd? Make every square cost double movement? How do you adjudicate situations like the above example?

I put in a section (adapted Open Game Content from FFG's "City Works") on that for the Shem-Gateway to the South sourcebook, but it was edited out. I don't know how to format a table in this, but here is the section. I had been using those rules for a while in my own Conan campaign.

Excellent-- in addition to Closing the Gap, I assume there is a similar mechanic for Widening the Gap? That is, if the Hunter fails, the Prey moves his move speed away from the Hunter?

 

[VincentDarlage]

No. If the hunter fails, he simply doesn't move closer. The prey has to use tactics to lose the hunter.

 

[Giavonn]

No. If the hunter fails, he simply doesn't move closer. The prey has to use tactics to lose the hunter.

You're kidding, right? The Prey is incapable of running faster than the Hunter, but the Hunter can catch the Prey with a simple die roll?

Then how does this:

If the prey manages to move more than 100 feet away from the hunters then stop combat and return to the chase system

ever happen? All that tactics do is give a modifier to the next chase roll, and the Prey, you say, cannot move further away based on that roll.

 

[VincentDarlage]

You're kidding, right? The Prey is incapable of running faster than the Hunter, but the Hunter can catch the Prey with a simple die roll?

No. They make their normal double movement. If the prey has a faster movement, then he will outdistance the hunter.

Then how does this ever happen? All that tactics do is give a modifier to the next chase roll, and the Prey, you say, cannot move further away based on that roll.

Through normal, double moves. If the prey is faster, then the prey can outrun them. Also, certain tactics allow for escape, such as using dense areas as cover, then taking an unexpected alley or door, and the hunter moves himself out of range, etc.

I have used the system a lot, and it has worked for my needs. Further, I never let rules override a good story, and if a heroic escape is needed, then a heroic escape is managed. Most of the time when I use these rules, the hunters are the PCs.

 

[Giavonn]

You're kidding, right? The Prey is incapable of running faster than the Hunter, but the Hunter can catch the Prey with a simple die roll?

No. They make their normal double movement. If the prey has a faster movement, then he will outdistance the hunter.

Except that that outdistancing can be eaten up by a single roll on the Hunter's part, and apparently only the Hunter gets to roll.

Then how does this ever happen? All that tactics do is give a modifier to the next chase roll, and the Prey, you say, cannot move further away based on that roll.

Through normal, double moves. If the prey is faster, then the prey can outrun them. Also, certain tactics allow for escape, such as using dense areas as cover, then taking an unexpected alley or door, and the hunter moves himself out of range, etc.

But the prey can't move out of range with a tactic if all the tactic does is add a modifier to the Chase roll.

I have used the system a lot, and it has worked for my needs. Further, I never let rules override a good story, and if a heroic escape is needed, then a heroic escape is managed. Most of the time when I use these rules, the hunters are the PCs.

One-sided mechanics break immersiveness for me. I'll pass.

 

[VincentDarlage]

One-sided mechanics break immersiveness for me. I'll pass.

And I will pass on having too many rules, especially when a bit of common sense during play can sort out the issue you are having with this one. Anyway, I didn't write the system (it was Open Content from Mike Mearls), and my players and I have had lots of fun with it as a guideline, so I offered it here to help out Flatscan as an option, so feel free to pass. If you can come up with a more "immersive" rule set, let us know.

I've never had a problem with that little set of rules. It's easy, if nothing else. I have had people escape while using it, so it is certainly possible. Had one character manage a fast climb over an obstacle, and the other character couldn't make the climb - end of chase, no additional rules needed. It was a nice little tactic - and it worked, despite your position that tactics can't work for the prey.

Another time, the prey used the crowd as an obstacle when she ducked into an alley and hid. The hunter in this case failed to Spot the move (and the Hide) and moved himself out of range for the chase - again ending the chase in favour of the prey.

I even used this in a wilderness environment once. A party was being chased by Picts. Well, one of the party members was in heavy armour. The rest of the party realized they did not have to run faster than the Picts, just faster than the Æsir in armour. Once the Picts caught the Æsir, the chase was over (the Æsir died, but the rest of the party escaped)!

It seems to me that escaping a chase is much harder than catching someone in a chase. The prey simply has to work harder. A chase is not an even playing field, and making rules that are "two-sided" and "fair" for both parties seems unrealistic to me. What you would seem to consider "immersive" would not be so for me. The prey has to work harder to escape - and these rules reflect that. The hunter isn't looking for escape routes or opportunities - his eye is on the ball, so to speak. By using tactics that keep the hunter from closing, the prey may be able to move into a place where the hunter cannot see him - where he can hide, change directions safely - and cause the hunter to move himself out of range. Often those being chased are looking behind them to see where the hunters are - which slows the prey. The genius of these rules is that this sort of thing is accurately reflected. The prey has to be creative and/or just flat out faster to escape, which seems realistic to me (chasing someone with the Run feat would be hard).

You could also go into exhaustion rules. Someone with a 6 Con probably could not chase someone with an 18 Con for long, so if the chase went on long enough, the prey will escape.

If you want to introduce an element of dumb luck (or if you just enjoy pratfalls), you could make the hunters fall on their asses if they roll a "1" or something on their check, thus stopping their movement for a round.

Anyway, if that little ruleset doesn't work for you, please don't use it or even give it further consideration. I hope it works fine for Flatscan, though.