Cult Runespells and Cult Runes

[Itto]

The relation between the Runes of a cult and the Cult Runespells has vexed me since first reading them.

For example in Cults of Glorantha Orlanth has the Runes Air, Mastery and Motion.

He has access to Bladesharp, Cover of Night, Mobility, Skybolt and Thunder's Voice.

Bladesharp is with the Rune of Metal, Cover of Night is Darkness, Mobility is Motion, Skybolt is Chaos and Thunder's Voice is Mastery. Now Thunder's Voice and Mobilty is okay, as the Runes tie in but the others don't. Why isn't it Speedart, Slow, Extinguish or Co-Ordination down as a Cult Runespell?

I know that the listed spells are the ones that the cult had in RQ3, also they are pretty Orlanth like spells and so it makes sense for the cult to have them. But that jars with the rules.

Also there was the issue of spells that used to be Divine spells turning into Runespells in Cults of Glorantha 2. Which can unbalance things (Blinding for example) or make the very difficult for anyone to cast them (Arrow Trance needs Earth, Fertility and Plant to cast) due to the need to gather all the runes required.

Trying to reconcile all this with what I want out of GMing RuneQuest (which I've done for 25 years now), ie all players having access to spells, NPCs having access to spells and the like. I'm not into having to dish out Runes, which should be fairly rare, especially with the funky Runic Powers. To get the feel that I want I've created house rules, which esentially rewrite how Runemagic works for members of cults. But I'm unhappy in wholesale rewriting rules, as its a pain the arse having to tell players what the new rules are, especially as they have bought the rule books so they know how things work. Also I don't like house rules that are big changes it makes me feel that I've missed some part of the rules or misunderstood something and generally gets me down , house rules that tweek is a different matter. So anyway my new house rule tweek, so that I can bin the pages of houserules that I have for Runemagic, is that spells in the Cults description are all counted as Divine (for divine cults that is).

So followers of Orlanth can have access to Bladesharp and to get it they sacrifice the same as if they where getting Flight. And they cast it in the same way.

Of course getting hold of a rune is far better for a player as they can cast the spell more often, as it should be. Also it means that my NPCs can cast spells, and when they die the players are not handed lots of valuable Runes. Otherwise they would end up being weighed down by them and have so many Runic Powers that they would be mundian rather than something special.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts, as it made me happy to be able to have a simple change that does not require pages of handouts for my players and keeps for me a Gloranthan feel.

 

[RosenMcStern]

It is less tragic than it looks. The theist cults in Cults 1 are totally screwed up from a Gloranthan PoV (Orlanthi integrating Chaos runes to cast Skybolt). As for NPC casters dropping wagonloads of runes that the PCs get as booty, I have already complained as much as possible. But the shamanistic cults in Cults 2 fix a lot of things. Unfortunately Cults 2, although not suffering from bad concepts, suffers from bad editing (contradictions).

Let's examine the example you made: Arrow Trance. First of all, it is labeled in the text as a Divine Spella available to Rune Lords only. But it is described as a Rune Spell connected to Earth, Plant and Fertility in the spell description: an example of editing errors. Let's assume that the spell description is correct, and make it a spirit spell. If you look at the spell mechanics for Aldrya, you will discover that Aldrya is in fact a spirit cult (as in RQ3), so the spells do not use Runes that you have to locate, but shamanic charms - you only need your shaman to craft the three basic charms to learn the spell. An Aldryami player who relies on Arrow Trance is also helped in that he uses his Summoning skill to cast spells, so he does not need to learn Runecasting(Earth) to cast Arrow Trance and Runecasting (Fertility) to cast Heal. Moreover, if your party defeats elves who use Arrow Trance or trolls who use Blinding, they will not drop precious runes that the characters can attune, but useless charms that work only for them.

So the point is: the base mechanics is heavily flawed, or at least non-Gloranthan, but the last adaptations have fixed most points [if and when the editing errors in Cults 1/2 are fixed by errata] by introducing spirit magic. The sad thing is that many popular cults like Orlanth or Vinga or Issaries are still screwed up, whereas Kyger Litor, for instance, is somehow playable.

I think I must put my variant rules on the wiki, sooner or later.

 

[soltakss]

The relation between the Runes of a cult and the Cult Runespells has vexed me since first reading them.

Unfortunately, RuneQuest Runemagic and Gloranthan Cult Magic don't really mix.

This wasn't a problem in earlier versions of RQ as they were not Runic in nature.

I know that the listed spells are the ones that the cult had in RQ3, also they are pretty Orlanth like spells and so it makes sense for the cult to have them. But that jars with the rules.

Yes, it jars with the idea of Runemagic being associated with/based on Runes. I'd scrap Runes completely and go back to RQ2/3 style Battle/Spirit Magic.

Also there was the issue of spells that used to be Divine spells turning into Runespells in Cults of Glorantha 2. Which can unbalance things (Blinding for example) or make the very difficult for anyone to cast them (Arrow Trance needs Earth, Fertility and Plant to cast) due to the need to gather all the runes required.

That was a big mistake, in my opinion. Cults of Glorantha 1 and 2 have damaged the basic idea of cults and cultic magic in RQ.

 

[Sinisalo]

This has been argued over vehemently since MRQs release. Most of us use Rurik's Rule which means you can learn and cast your cult rune spells using your theology skill and without possessing runes. Just by adding the above sentence to their rule book (a missed opportunity with deluxe) they would fix this terrible mistake. Sadly I think they've stopped listening.

 

[Deleriad]

This has been argued over vehemently since MRQs release. Most of us use Rurik's Rule which means you can learn and cast your cult rune spells using your theology skill and without possessing runes.

I use a slight variation on this. I give members of a cult access to the advanced skill Runecast (Deity). It's a runecasting skill that allows you to cast runic cult magic plus that provided by associated deities.

This is primarily a game balance move in that a member of a cult doesn't get all the divine magic and all the rune magic in one skill.

 

[Itto]

This has been argued over vehemently since MRQs release. Most of us use Rurik's Rule which means you can learn and cast your cult rune spells using your theology skill and without possessing runes. Just by adding the above sentence to their rule book (a missed opportunity with deluxe) they would fix this terrible mistake. Sadly I think they've stopped listening.

This is what I was sort of using, but it feels like I was doing it just so that the game played more like RQ3. I wanted the magic rules to be different in Mongooses RuneQuest and I actually quite like the idea of Runes being attainable and them giving powers and the ability to cast magic. It’s just that it does not fit in with Divine cults. Making the Runemagic that is available to divine cults work in the same way as divine magic will (maybe) solve this for me, and also means that didn't have to worry about the oddness that occurred in Cults 2.

While it does sort of weaken divine players, as they will have to dedicate POW to "learn" runemagic, thus limiting the amount and how many times they can cast. They could learn associated cults magic too, so that they would gain by being more flexible what they could cast.

Also it means that everything about being in a divine cult and using its magic works means that its very different to being in a spirit cult, or having a rune and casting magic through that.

On game mechanic front, I'd say that Cult Magic (the runic stuff as its written in the books) was Simple to cast so has a +20% modifier to Theology. Also as its being cast as Divine maybe the Magnitude should be doubled too (but I'm thinking as I'm typing about that).

 

[halorix]

My variation is something like this. An integrated cult rune allows an initiate to cast any cult rune magic. E.g. Vinga has the cult runes air and motion, an initiate with either rune integrated can cast all the Vingan runic spells.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I generally assume that divine magic (which is far more accessible than it used to be) is the default, and rune magic is unique tricks that you pick up along the way.

MRQ's rune magic is NOT the common day magic it was in RQ2 (that role is taken by the folk magic from the Players Guide)

 

[khazwind]

I like the idea of a cult acting as if it were a rune for purposes of casting spells.

OTOH, attuning a rune gives a character special advantages beyond casting spells.

I think, for my game but YGWV, I'll use Lore (Specific Theology) for casting cult spells (costing 1 point of POW for initiation), but require rune integration plus POW cost plus Runecasting skill for non-cult spells.

 

[Loz]

Sadly I think they've stopped listening.

Far from it. I've been working with Jeff Kyer on the Cults I and II books and although I've had to put this project on hold for a variety of reasons, there will be a fix produced in due course. However, there is a great deal of work to be done, and, as others have pointed out, it needs to be done right. So please don't mistake silence for a lack of effort. But it will take time...

BTW, I agree that Rurik's Rule is a very workable solution - but there may be others that could fit Gloranthan cults better. Its a question of examing the possibilities and finding what fits the world - bearing in mind that there are differences amongst the theist cults that might demand a different approach. Like I say, there is work going on, but a very heavy schedule has had to divert my attention elsewhere for now.

Loz

 

[Voriof]

Sadly I think they've stopped listening.

Far from it. I've been working with Jeff Kyer on the Cults I and II books and although I've had to put this project on hold for a variety of reasons, there will be a fix produced in due course. However, there is a great deal of work to be done, and, as others have pointed out, it needs to be done right. So please don't mistake silence for a lack of effort. But it will take time...

BTW, I agree that Rurik's Rule is a very workable solution - but there may be others that could fit Gloranthan cults better. Its a question of examing the possibilities and finding what fits the world - bearing in mind that there are differences amongst the theist cults that might demand a different approach. Like I say, there is work going on, but a very heavy schedule has had to divert my attention elsewhere for now.

Loz

Ah. Good to hear you're still on the case. All that commentary and addenda were not in vain then.

I originally had something very similar to Rurik's rule in the ms. I find it being called Rurik's Rule somewhat ironic. It was, at best, a fast and dirty solution but only fitted Gloratha so-so.

Jeff

 

[Loz]

Ah. Good to hear you're still on the case. All that commentary and addenda were not in vain then.

Not in vain at all Jeff. Its just been one of the busiest few months I've had for a long while, and only so many hours in the day.

 

[Rurik]

Where is a good Timestop when you need one?

Out of curiosity, which rule is the Rurik's Rule being referred to in this thread?

(I'd thought the term referred to a the use of the original 2-roll combat table with a single opposed roll, but this does not seem to be the context in this thread).

 

[Voriof]

Where is a good Timestop when you need one?

Out of curiosity, which rule is the Rurik's Rule being referred to in this thread?

(I'd thought the term referred to a the use of the original 2-roll combat table with a single opposed roll, but this does not seem to be the context in this thread).

The using the cults spells and runes. Again, I note that the very inflexible runic associations with the rune spells just doesn't fit Glorantha as well as it might, particularly with the fairly lifestyle specific magic that cults should be providing their worshipers - cults are not about power* but about supporting a role in society and a way of life. I would have liked to have seen one or two more 'lifestyle' cults but at least most of the basics of farming, hunting, and killing people are covered.

I suppose it could have been rewritten with folk magic in mind (published after the cults ms was written) but the fit between Gloranthan religious and social 'realities' and the cult magic turned out to be a lot poorer than I had hoped.

Jeff

* Player characters, as always, are exceptions or exceptional.

 

[Rurik]

Ahh.

Though I have defended the system as workable (it is), that is really Mongoose's rule. That is just playing the RAW.

While I kind of like the physical rune thingy's, the shoehorning of them and the rune magic system to Glorantha is a bit awkward for sure.

Taking Orlanth for example, Bladesharp is a cult spell but he has no association with the metal rune. I consider Gustbran a (the?) primary source of metal runes for the Orlanth cult. Works well enough.

And I have just never used or allowed Skybolt in any of my games - I decided it was broken based on the Companion alone - so the Chaos thing wasn't a problem for me. Though honestly I am reconsidering it's power level after having played a bit (it is not nearly as deadly as it seemed coming into the system from a RQ2/3 mindset).

While I welcome any official changes to the Rune Magic system in Glorantha I have just always felt that Shamanism and and the spells formerly known as Divine from Cults 2 needed fixed fist. Rune magic is not broken, just offensive to some.

 

[Taavi]

A workaround for Bladesharp/bludgeon/etc all using the Metal rune might be to use the idea of rune metals (Solar pantheon uses gold, earth pantheon uses copper, etc). Use the god's substance rune as the one that corresponds to that metal, and then integrating that rune lets you cast Bladesharp (etc) on weapons made from the rune metal. The "metal" rune either becomes one that will let you cast it on all metals or has its scope restricted to iron (which is suggested by the runic power).

Another suggestion to integrate pantheon and rune magic more closely; Rune Priests gain the power to create the Runes of their deity with Divine Intervention (assuming the rule that Rune Priests still use 1d10 POW not 1d100 for DI still applies?) Number of runes = POW cost /2, round down, average 2.5 runes/intervention at a cost of 5.5 POW. This ensures cults can gain the runes of their deity but keeps them expensive, probably only distributed to Rune Lords as rewards (and also makes temples tempting places for rune-seeking adventurers to rob).

Skybolt is still broken and should be replaced with something like "induce chaos mutation".

 

[Voriof]

Skybolt is still broken and should be replaced with something like "induce chaos mutation".

You mean this?

Chaos Feature
Duration Instant, Magnitude 5
Cult: Primal Chaos

This ritual takes 12 hours and gives the target a chaotic feature (see RuneQuest, page XX). For each chaotic feature a devotee accepts, he has a cumulative 10% chance of transforming permanently into a broo. Once it begins, this transformation cannot be resisted, altered, or stopped short of the death of the subject. The chance for transformation must be checked each time the creature gains a chaotic feature. The ritual costs the caster 1 POW permanently when the ritual is begun.

Doesn't fit into the rules as well as it might as it several important changes to the divine magic rules occurred post-ms.

Unfortunately, many of the spirit spells in CoG2 were intended to be Divine spells belonging to cults that had a mixed magical heritage (Aldryami and Uz especially) and were able to practice several different magical styles, albeit with restrictions, as a part of their racial heritage. Or were Chaos cults which praticed divine magic of their own. Changing them all to immediately reusable Spirit spells has a great effect on their usefulness - generally making them extremely powerful. Blinding, I'm looking at you. On the other hand, some divine spells such as Accelerate Growth which seemed inordinately difficult are a lot more fun as Rune spells! Now we know where those fast growing Aldryami forests come from... except they're really, really, really fast now.

Helpfully,

Jeff

 

[Cleombrotus]

I've had the hump with Cults/Rune magic since pretty much my first post. There would have been a time when I would have enjoyed creating a huge list of house rules and exceptions and justifications, but not these days. I want to spend my time writing scenarios and drawing maps and creating npc's.

However, I've always liked Rune integration as a concept (putting the 'quest' in Runequest).

What I wondered is, "what is a spell as far as the rules are concerned?". Is a spell in Runequest a manifested power, a specific ritual or process with a specified result, a spiritual effect manifested by a spirit or deity, or is it an abstract effect?

Is Bladesharp a specific spell tied to the Metal rune or is it an effect that can be invoked by being tied to the Metal rune? Or is the bladesharp effect a result that can be achieved in multiple ways? By integrating the Metal rune, or by joining a cult that has some ancient rite that has granted them a technique for achieving the same effect without integrating the rune. In this case, rune integration simply provides a means to gain additional rune magic spells that would not be available to a particular cult.

Skybolt is an effect that Orlanth worshippers can achieve (ill-concieved as it is) through the Storm aspect of Orlanth. Clearly an Orlanthi Skybolt is lightning. However, a similar effect can be learned by those who have integrated the Chaos Rune - perhaps a tiny tear in reality that lets a directed bolt of pure chaos to strike the intended target for ballistic effect? (I know this grates somewhat, but it's a good illustration of what I'm getting at.)

My point is that perhaps Rune Magic should be regarded as a series of generic effects rather than as specific spells. Using Rurik'sRule(?) of casting all spells learned from your cult with Specific Theology (do I have that right?), but the amateur who has merely integrated the rune and has no cult instruction in its use has to learn to Runecast? Whilst the name and effect are similar (i.e the same) the spells are actually different means of achieving the same rules effect.

For Glorantha it means that the most efficient and cost effective way of learning lots of good magic is through cults. One skill, multiple effects. Makes sense to me. At least on paper. Character sheets will need a space to mark the source of each spell.

 

[Deleriad]

For Glorantha it means that the most efficient and cost effective way of learning lots of good magic is through cults. One skill, multiple effects. Makes sense to me. At least on paper. Character sheets will need a space to mark the source of each spell.

This is basically what I have ended up doing as I hope to start a long-running Gloranthan campaign soon.

Like you, it seems to me that the common spell effects could be cast through being a member of a cult (theism), creating a charm (animism) or integrating a rune and that integrating a rune is the rarest option.*

To keep a little balance I use Runecasting (Deity) to allow the casting of rune magic provided by the deity and Invoke (Deity) for casting Diving Magic.

When it comes to the spells themselves, I've been working up a table where each spell can usually be cast by one of up to 5 runes which implies usually that each rune has access to about 10 spells. Some spells are specific to just one rune (e.g. Hand of Death) while others are as common as much and available to around about 15 runes.

When cast through an integrated rune, the flavour of the spell depends on the rune. Similarly if cast through a deity then it depends on the deity which also means that if you get excommunicated from your cult, you can no longer runecast through it.

At the moment this seems to be working as both a decent simulation and as a decent game balance.

 

[Cleombrotus]

When it comes to the spells themselves, I've been working up a table where each spell can usually be cast by one of up to 5 runes which implies usually that each rune has access to about 10 spells. Some spells are specific to just one rune (e.g. Hand of Death) while others are as common as much and available to around about 15 runes.

Yeah, I saw the thread where you mentioned this, and it seems the best idea, and what should have been done in the first place. What I have always been looking for is a way of explaining what's written in the books as published without having to resort to too much (by my definition) extra work.

But whilst I can see the value of your approach, I personally would rather adopt a different reading of what's in print (drawing implications from what's written) rather than re-write stuff.

Anyone can learn and cast Runespells by virtue of integrating the rune associated with that spell.
Theists can learn and cast Runespells by virtue of being in a cult that teaches them.
The two are not mutually exclusive, just different means to the same end.
Where this falls down, of course, is why a cult doesn't have access to certain spells associated with a Rune that a particular God(dess) is associated with. Personally I'd say that this would supercede all other access to runespells as far as Glorantha is concerned.
This gives a list of personally accessible Gloranthan rune magic as any spell associated with a cult rune, any spell listed in the cult description, and any spell associated with an integrated rune. How you cast said spells is defined by how they were acquired. How they manifest should be defined by the nature of the cult and the runic association and the style of your campaign.