Crusade DVDs

qstor

Mongoose
I just got the first 2 DVDs from Netflix. I didnt get a chance to see the show when it ran on TBS. So this was my first time viewing it. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. The first episode DID not flow well from A Call to Arms. It seemed to me at least that Sinclair and Garabaldi should have been the ones setting up the team at least in copperation with EarthGov since the Excalibur was part of the ISA force that Sinclair was building up.

And Durreana didn't seem like she recoginzed the Excalibur when she can onboard with Gideon.

I guess the show is going to get some taking used to, its a pretty big departure IMO from B5. Just my two credits.. :)

Mike
 

Satai Delenn

Mongoose
Keeping watching Crusade maybe something will catch I think it would have been a lot better than B5 ever was had it been aloud to continue.
And what's Sinclair beening in it ? I thought it was Sheridan that was in the movie ACTA.
 

frobisher

Mongoose
qstor said:
It seemed to me at least that Sinclair and Garabaldi should have been the ones setting up the team at least in copperation with EarthGov since the Excalibur was part of the ISA force that Sinclair was building up.

You'll note that the hand over was at Mars (whereas she was refitted at Babylon 5 at the end of ACtA). Real life reason is that they didn't have the budget for the guest appearences at that point (the episode you saw wasn't the original first episode, but the "new" first one that TNT insisted that jms made - you'll see what was originally intended as the first episode as the first one with the "new" (actually original) uniforms), and the show reason would be that they didn't want to endanger the President of the ISA any further. Garibaldi should have been in a later episode (Ruling from the Tomb) but again budget couldn't be found for his guest appearence so another Martian security expert was put in his place :) You can probably spot the role that was meant to be Lyta's as well when you come across it ;)

qstor said:
And Durreana didn't seem like she recoginzed the Excalibur when she can onboard with Gideon.

Ah well, it has been redecorated by that point ;)

qstor said:
I guess the show is going to get some taking used to, its a pretty big departure IMO from B5. Just my two credits.. :)

It's worth the effort, if a bit (understatement) disjointed (there's a paradox in the show's timeline due to the airing order, plus the required "reboot" that TNT wanted - virtual Mars Bar to the first person to point it out) - Do you get the commentries and documentaries on these versions of the DVDs? If you do, there's quite a bit of insight into teh direction the series was going to take from jms in there...
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
qstor said:
And Durreana didn't seem like she recoginzed the Excalibur when she can onboard with Gideon.

Here is jms' comment on that - I pulled it from the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5.

Why does Dureena give the impression she's never seen the Excalibur before?
Actually, she never gives that impression; her reaction to the others seeing the ship and being impressed is to shrug and say, "It'll do." She's not impressed because she's already been there.

Kizarvexis
 

qstor

Mongoose
Satai Delenn said:
Keeping watching Crusade maybe something will catch I think it would have been a lot better than B5 ever was had it been aloud to continue.
And what's Sinclair beening in it ? I thought it was Sheridan that was in the movie ACTA.

yeah, I meant Sheridan.. :)

I'll keep watching the other episodes. The next few discs should come from Netflixs soon..

Mike
 

redlaco

Mongoose
I was skeptical at first, but then I got really hooked.

It's sad the suits at WB cancelled the show as it was full of promises and might well have been - as Satai Delenn puts it - even better than B5.

BTW, the commentaries about the cancellation of the remaining seasons were deleted from the DVDs, altough JMS has insisted about them being there. Probably it was putting some WB execs to shame, or something...
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
redlaco said:
BTW, the commentaries about the cancellation of the remaining seasons were deleted from the DVDs, altough JMS has insisted about them being there. Probably it was putting some WB execs to shame, or something...

They're listed as being on the R2 versions. We'll have to wait and see I suppose!

LBH
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
frobisher said:
You'll note that the hand over was at Mars (whereas she was refitted at Babylon 5 at the end of ACtA). Real life reason is that they didn't have the budget for the guest appearences at that point (the episode you saw wasn't the original first episode, but the "new" first one that TNT insisted that jms made - you'll see what was originally intended as the first episode as the first one with the "new" (actually original) uniforms), and the show reason would be that they didn't want to endanger the President of the ISA any further. Garibaldi should have been in a later episode (Ruling from the Tomb) but again budget couldn't be found for his guest appearence so another Martian security expert was put in his place :) You can probably spot the role that was meant to be Lyta's as well when you come across it ;)

Huh??? I understand all the budgetary constraints, but you confused the hell out of me and I saw it every time it came on TNT and SciFi channel.

Lyta was never supposed to be in this series. This is set AFTER Psi Corps was done away with, and they wanted to have a relatively normal Telepath play the First Officer.
 

Kizarvexis

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
Lyta was never supposed to be in this series. This is set AFTER Psi Corps was done away with, and they wanted to have a relatively normal Telepath play the First Officer.

I believe he is referring to the flashback that Lt. Matheson had in "The Path of Sorrows'. The teep he interacts with was supposed to be Lyta.

Kizarvexis
 

frobisher

Mongoose
redlaco said:
It's sad the suits at WB cancelled the show as it was full of promises and might well have been - as Satai Delenn puts it - even better than B5.

It wasn't WB that canned Crusade, it was TNT.

redlaco said:
BTW, the commentaries about the cancellation of the remaining seasons were deleted from the DVDs, altough JMS has insisted about them being there. Probably it was putting some WB execs to shame, or something...

Not quite it - jms had given the commentries on the ground they were used as is with no editing to remove content concerning the cancellation of the series and the like.

The commentries were edited without his permission, and hence he asked for their removal frm all future pressings of the disks.
 

Michka

Mongoose
If you want to know how the series ends, you could always rent Star Blazers.

(Sorry, I can't watch the show without hearing the Star Blazers theme music. "Hurry Earthforce, The Earth only has 4 years 246 days.")
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Michka said:
If you want to know how the series ends, you could always rent Star Blazers.

(Sorry, I can't watch the show without hearing the Star Blazers theme music. "Hurry Earthforce, The Earth only has 4 years 246 days.")

Given that the Drakh plague was going to be cured in season two of the five year arc, I think not...
 

Michka

Mongoose
I know. I would have enjoyed the show if it had been given the chance. I just can't get over the similarities between Crusade and Star Blazers. (Never saw Space Cruiser Yamato) A threat to the Earth so one ship is sent out to get the cure. The ship has this amazing weapon that will destroy just about anything. Now if you use the big gun, the ship is defensless for a while. There were some other similarities but I'm noy thinking of them right now.

I haven't gotten the chance to watch Crusade since it aired, but I liked "A Call to Arms" much more the second time around so I do look forward to seeing Crusade with new eyes.
 

Kizarvexis

Mongoose
Well both the Argo and the Excalibur had the same problem with deus ex machina. The 'shut down after firing the weapon' bit was to keep the big gun from being the solution to every problem and restrict it to the solution to only the problems that nothing else could handle. The Psi-Corp and the other alien governments handling of telepathy was the same thing. At least they tried to handle the problems of the tech rather than sweep it under the rug like some other shows. Not to mention, how would you do a series on 5 or 6 ships all going out to find a cure (or even 2-3)? This is TV, not a book, so the story needs to be restricted to one ship to be able to tell stories in the short time frame of a TV show. Remember, the Rangers were also out looking for a cure and this was mentioned in the series multiple times.

On the issue of jms writing and producing TMoS I want to present the following. Most people like seasons 2-4 of B5 with season 3 seeming to me to be the most popular. Since jms wrote every ep from 'Confessions and Lamentations' (Season 2, ep 18 ) to 'Secrets of the Soul' (Season 5, ep 7) and the vast majority of those are considered some of the best eps, I'll give jms the doubt before worrying about how TMoS will come out.

Here is a list of every ep jms wrote. And don't forget as producer, he was able to insert dialogue as needed to further the arc in eps he didn't write.

Season 1 - 12 eps of 22
Midnight on the Firing Line
Soul Hunter
Infection
The Parliament of Dreams
Mind War
And The Sky Full Of Stars
Signs and Portents
A Voice in the Wilderness part 1
A Voice in the Wilderness part 2
Babylon Squared
The Quality of Mercy
Chrysalis

Season 2 - 15 eps of 22
Points of Departure
Revelations
The Geometry of Shadows
A Race Through Dark Places
The Coming of Shadows
All Alone in the Night
Acts of Sacrifice
Hunter, Prey
And Now For a Word
In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum
Confessions and Lamentations
Divided Loyalties
The Long, Twilight Struggle
Comes the Inquisitor
The Fall of Night

Season 3 - all 22 eps
Matters of Honor
Convictions
A Day in the Strife
Passing Through Gethsemane
Voices of Authority
Dust to Dust
Exogenesis
Messages from Earth
Point of No Return
Severed Dreams
Ceremonies of Light and Dark
Sic Transit Vir
A Late Delivery from Avalon
Ship of Tears
Interludes and Examinations
War Without End, Part One
War Without End, Part Two
Walkabout
Grey 17 Is Missing
And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place
Shadow Dancing
Z'ha'dum

Season 4 - all 22 eps
The Hour of the Wolf
Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
The Summoning
Falling Toward Apotheosis
The Long Night
Into the Fire
Epiphanies
The Illusion of Truth
Atonement
Racing Mars
Lines of Communication
Conflicts of Interest
Rumors, Bargains and Lies
Moments of Transition
No Surrender, No Retreat
The Exercise of Vital Powers
The Face of the Enemy
Intersections in Real Time
Between the Darkness and the Light
Endgame
Rising Star
The Deconstruction of Falling Stars

Season 5 - 21 eps of 22
No Compromises
The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
The Paragon of Animals
A View from the Gallery
Learning Curve
Strange Relations
Secrets of the Soul
A Tragedy of Telepaths
Phoenix Rising
Day of the Dead
The Ragged Edge
The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father
Meditations on the Abyss
Darkness Ascending
And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder
Movements of Fire and Shadow
The Fall of Centauri Prime
Wheel of Fire
Objects in Motion
Objects at Rest
Sleeping in Light

So 92 of the total 110 eps were written by jms. Yes, some were stinkers, but who is perfect all the time? A lot of those 92 eps are the best the series had to offer, so I'll give jms some slack. B5 tried many new things in Sci-Fi TV, some of which worked and some did not. But they did it on budget and in time, which is part of the reason there is Sci-Fi on TV that is not Trek, IMO.

Also, just to make sure that they aren't any misunderstandings, Season 5 would have largely been the same if PTEN didn't fold at the beginning of Season 4. Jms has said that if the fifth season would have been approved in time, then 'Intersections in Real Time' would have been the season finale of season 4 with the end of the EA civil war finished in the beginning of season 5. If Claudia Christian (Ivanova) would've stayed for season 5, she would have had the Teep arc instead of Lyta. B5 was about the characters during the lead up to the war, fighting the war and the clean up after the war was over. Season 5 was the cleanup after the wars were over. Remember, the duration is a lot longer than the war.

Look at WWII. If you want to see why the war started, then you need to look at hw WWI started and was ended. WWII didn't end after VE and VJ day in 1945. Rebuilding went on well into the 50's and parts of eastern Europe were still damaged as late as 1989 when the Berlin wall fell. So the B5 story didn't end after the Shadows and Vorlons left, but went on with picking up the pieces. I know this isn't how TV usually works, but life doesn't always end 'happily ever after' and I'm glad B5 showed that to me.

Kizarvexis
Sorry for the long rant and I hope I was too windy. ;)
 

Michka

Mongoose
That was an excellant rant and I see no reason for apology. My cracks about Crusade weren't meant to be taken seriously. I love the writing of JMS. If he works on a project then I will go look for it. I've never thought he was anything less that a genius.
 

redlaco

Mongoose
frobisher said:
redlaco said:
BTW, the commentaries about the cancellation of the remaining seasons were deleted from the DVDs, altough JMS has insisted about them being there. Probably it was putting some WB execs to shame, or something...

Not quite it - jms had given the commentries on the ground they were used as is with no editing to remove content concerning the cancellation of the series and the like.

The commentries were edited without his permission, and hence he asked for their removal frm all future pressings of the disks.

That's exactly what I said. :roll: When I say "they deleted it", I was refering to the part
of the commentary where JMS explains the cancellation of Crusade on my set of DVDs, which is from the first print, Region 1. :|
And just to make it official, let's see what the Great Maker himself had to say about the issue :

Code:
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (jms at b5)
Subject: Re: "Crusade" DVDs in TNT order
To: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated  
Date: 12/10/2004 4:10:05 AM

 
>I've listened to the commenary and features but I haven't heard anything
>really
>about what happened. Certainly not anything like the story we were told at
>Hawthorne. One wonders if they gave in and let JMS talk about what happened
>and then simply edited it out.

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

I sat down to watch the DVD set yesterday, having picked it up at the local
store, and went to the commentary. I'd put that information at the very start
of my commentary. 

Now, understand: what I'd told WB was this....if you want me to do the
commentary, my requirement is that you let me tell what really happened. If
you want to use the commentary, you have to leve that in. If you don't want to
have that in, then don't use the commentary at all. Everybody agreed.

So I started it up...listened...and it was gone. 

In its place is a segment taken from the on-camera interview. 

This was the one tape they didn't send me for approval, which being busy I
didn't track back, but I was always told there wasn't a problem. At no time
did ANYONE from WB or New Wave Entertainment tell me that this was being done.

Doing these DVDs was the only way I had to date to get the bad taste of that
experience out of my mouth, the sheer dishonesty and rudeness of it all.

So much for that goal.

The term "furious" doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm normally a very quiet,
soft spoken kind of guy.

But last night I broke the sound barrier and the dictionary all at the same
time.

Furious.

You have no idea.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2004 by synthetic worlds, ltd., 
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine 
and don't send me story ideas)
 
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