Critical Hits, what's multiplied?

[Oly]

This has probably been answered before but I can't find it.....

When you get a critical hit the rules say "you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses and add the rolls together". It further adds "extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit".

First thing, I presume that when it mentions multiplying it means it in the terms of rolling additional times not actual multiplying (e.g. rolling 2d10 rather than 1d10 * 2).

Next what is a "weapons normal damage"?

For example a PC scores a critical with a broadsword (1d10) with strength +3, a +1 power attack, +2 weapon specialisation and a +1d6 sneak attack. Sneak attack is definitely only rolled once but what about the rest?

I can see it being three ways depending on if the strength, power attack and weapon specialisation are "extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage"

A) (1d10 +3 +1 +2) + (1d10 +3 +1 +2) + 1d6
B) (1d10 +3) + (1d10 +3) +1 +2 +1d6
C) 1d10 +1d10 +3 +1 +2 +1d6

Bound to be a simple answer.....

 

[Evil_Trevor]

I don't have the rule book in front of me, since I'm at work and somebody would object, or borrow it, but I would say on getting a crit that
You roll the damage dice and add strength bonus twice
You add extra damage from Feats and the like Once

So in the example the damage is 1D10+3 + 1D10 +3 +1PA +2WS +1d6 sneak

Assuming mid-value rolls about 22 points of damage

Or you could interpret this as just rolling an extra 1D10 damage which would reduce the above figure by 3

 

[Banite]

You know, I would have applied the multiplier to all of the above except the sneak attack; Such as example A.

To be honest, it's worked to date in my 'vanilla' dnd games, but Conan tends to hit higher attack bonuses making power attack more deadly with the critical multiplier included in.

 

[Trodax]

You know, I would have applied the multiplier to all of the above except the sneak attack; Such as example A.

This is how I've always played as well, and I think its right.

I'm quite sure that Str-bonus is multiplied and that sneak attack is not multiplied, but for Power Attack and Weapon Specialisation and their like, I'm not 100%.

Don't have my Conan book handy right now, but here is what the SRD has to say:

When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

This is basically what you quoted from Conan, and doesn't really help.

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Bold by me. This indicates that all modifiers are used, just not sneak attack. Based on this I'd say that your example A was indeed correct (at least in D&D).

 

[Raven Blackwell]

As it is written my take is that it is the base damage of the dice plus any modifers to daamge like Strength bonus and Weapon Specialization that is multiplied while extra damage like that from Sneak Attack is not.

 

[Castel]

The way i see it... normal weapon damage are the dice... every thing else counts as bonus... the rest you add them to the damage...
So the way i see it, in critical you throw 2x(Normal Dice) for that weapon and had the rest...
As for a feat that also as given me what to think, "Spirited Charge"... the way I understand it is that your roll the dice and them multiplie the result by 2...

I think that this way criticals are still good, but are more random... PA for me is definitly a bonus so it doesn´t add... str also... Weapon Spc the same thing...

Quoting Conan Rpg AE page 158
"Critical hits
Extra damage over and above a weapon´s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. This includes adicional dice from magical effects and class features like sneak attack"

(my opinion)
Normal damage of broad sword 1d10 - critical 2d10... after roling the dice you add the bonusses... so it´s 2d10+etc

It´s about what you consider to be normal weapon damage...

 

[Evil_Trevor]

For A d 'n' d I have my own set of crit and fumble tables (a house rule) now Conan the Game doesn't have fumbles in it's vanilla version but here is a errata 'Fumble' rule which then allows me to dig out my crit and fumble table

Fumble If you roll a natural '1' on an attack roll you have missed and rolled a posible Fumble, Roll again and if you miss again you have Fumbled. On a fumble at G.M.s descration you could drop your weapon, fall over or even have hit one of your allies.

Having fumbles balances having crits and in Drums of tambalku Almeric survives only because the Big black guy (I forget his name - sorry) fumbles......

 

[Castel]

Very good ideia... i didn´t know that thing of the fumble... but we allready had that in our game as a house rule... but you dindn´t rolled to check if it hapenned... you rolled a 1... you would trip yourself into prone, you would lose your weapon, you would hit yourself, you would hit a friend... things like that... this was a result of the teory... it´s easyer to get unlucky than lucky... and i think that using a weapon that you´re not proficient with would increase this to be Fumble (1-2)

 

[Voltumna]

When you get a critical hit the rules say "you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses and add the rolls together". It further adds "extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit".

These two rules contradict each other. We have played up to now multiplying only the weapon's dice, but as it came up recently in a thread dealing with Explossive Power, we became aware of the rule that says "with all your usual bonuses". I think that is the reason Vincent Darlage wants the feat out of the game, otherwise, adding just the extra die for the weapon can still turn out not as deadly as you can always roll low. On the other hand, constant damage as that of str or feats, if multiplied can be devastating even if you roll low on the dice. Just think of any two handed weapon used with Power Attack, if you are taking a harsh penalty to hit for extra damage, that alone can add to a lot.

Rolling more dice can procure a lot of damage as well, but from my thieving experience, when I was rolling 4-5 d8s for sneak attacks, I wasn't dropping everyone I hit. Dice damage is very relative, though potentialy deadly.

Criticals are a big deal in the game. I think they should multiply bonuses as well, except sneak attack extra dice. I think that is the reason they have to be confirmed, and if you take into acount that, a threat that hits with a harsh penalty to attack, has a hard chance of being confirmed as the penalty has to be applied for confirmation too.

In our game a natural 20 is always a crit without need of confirmation, but that was only multiplying wepon dice. If we change to multiplying everything, 20s will have to be confirmed as well. We are discussing that right now. It sure makes for a much deadlier game.

Edited some typos.

 

[Castel]

There is only one problem, if it gets deadlier, it more easy to kill but its also more easy to die...

In my opinion the problem is that with a critical hit you sould be given a chance to survive the fatal blow... that´s what fortitude is for... but if you had stable number being multiplied... for the big tanks it would mean that each critical would be automatic death that even a 20 wouldn´t save you.

The tank of my party actually gives 16damage minimum, he has a great sword... that sword in critical... kills... if he hadded his str twice... then even 20 level character dificultly would have survived...

He is 6th soldier level... and the other day a soldier 17th level attacked us... guess what hapenned... he killed it with no critical needed...

Yes there is only a 11level diference... when i realised that the enemy was 17th i though..."WERE ALL GONNA DIE"

Actually even our games master was surprised... and said... "i should have given the soldier some armour" He was especting to see us run away

I liked the fact that the damage dice are biger, that the weapons are meaner... but i don´t like the fact that if you double constant number its always constant and a character dies, without a chance to survive against the critical...

Consider str 6 6x2=12 that the base fort of a level 20 soldier...

If its a bardiche 6X3=18 dealing at minimum 20 damage

For me Conan Rpg is already deadly enought... specialy with barbarians that gain increase of threat range as a class feature

About Explosive power... very unbalacing... but strangely it becames useless at hight levels... your attack is 30 - 20 BAB... you get +10... very dificult to get people of you level... but still dangerous to the lower level... i think it sould be banned to the oblivion, unless it said... you have to roll a natural 20 to hit using this feat...

 

[urdinaran]

The way we have always played it (d20, Conan, whatever) is everything is multiplied except for sneak attack and special types of additional damage (such as fire, cold, etc.).

 

[argo]

First thing, I presume that when it mentions multiplying it means it in the terms of rolling additional times not actual multiplying (e.g. rolling 2d10 rather than 1d10 * 2).

Technically you are supposed to do the former but the latter method is faster and gives the same result on average so do what you want.

Next what is a "weapons normal damage"?

The weapon's damage die is its base damage the normal damage is the base damage die plus all static modifiers such as Str bonus, Power Attack Damage, Weapon Specialization and (in dnd where you have magic weapons) static magical bonuses to damage (such as the +2 to damage from a +2 sword).

The extra damage is all non-static damage such as damage from Sneak Attack (dice) and (again in dnd) magical enhancements that add dice of damage (such as +1d6 fire for a Flaming sword).

A) (1d10 +3 +1 +2) + (1d10 +3 +1 +2) + 1d6

This is correct.

Hope that helps.

 

[Foxworthy]

Argo's right, but to clear up the matter abit further, if need be, here's what the DnD FAQ for D20 says.

What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack?

It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed
in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123 in the Player’s Handbook).

The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’ Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22 while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength, which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three times. As noted earlier, any damage expressed in extra points of damage is multiplied with a confirmed critical hit, so the extra damage from the smite evil ability or the Weapon Specialization feat is also multiplied. But damage expressed as extra dice does not increase, so a rogue doesn’t roll any extra sneak attack damage dice for a confirmed critical hit. However, some magic weapons that deal extra dice of damage do deal some extra damage on a confirmed critical hit, as noted in their descriptions. This ability is a special feature of these weapons.

You do not multiply damage that has already been multiplied. If the example character were striking a foe for double damage already, you would apply the extra (“doubled”) damage only once to the critical damage. For example, suppose the sample barbarian above is an azer, who deals fire damage along with his greataxe attack. The character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+23 (10+9+3+1 fire). A confirmed critical hit would make the damage 3d12+69, just as if you had rolled 1d12+23 three times. But if the azer attacks a creature with the cold subtype, the fire damage is doubled, so the base damage for the attack is 1d12+24 (10+9+3+2 fire). The doubled damage is not applied to a confirmed critical hit; instead the total damage becomes 3d12+70 (1d12+23 three times, plus one extra point for the “doubled” fire damage). Sharp readers may notice that two-handed weapons by their
nature deal “multiplied” damage (Strength bonus x1.5), but this is not a true damage multiplier in the sense that the term is used in the D&D game. Thus, the extra damage from a two-handed weapon is multiplied for a confirmed critical hit.

 

[Castel]

Well with that response i must admite that you multiplie damage str and other bonuses in a critical damage roll (and now i see that explosive Power simply doesn´t make any sense, it sure would give the GM a lot of trouble to find foes that would present any danger)

I just don´t like to multiplie the static numbers in critical hits...

This reinforces my belief that PA must be restricted to a situation in some way, and that the ultimate mellee war machine is a fullplated hyborian soldier with a greatsword maxed str and the right feats.

He wont be good at annything else, but he sure will be the ultimate Killing Machine.

Well Conan Rules were not made to be seen as "the ultimate rules", they are more like guide lines... you don´t like it you change it...
And i´ve found the only thing i don´t like about them...

 

[Oly]

Cheers for all the responses. I'll go with option A.

I'm sure that Power Attack isn't really a huge problem as a player has had that for a long time without too much issue. I'll have a check into the rules for explosive power.....

As for rolling 2d10 or 1d10 * 2 you may get the same average result but the distribution of results will be different. With 1d10 * 2 you're as likely to get a 2 or a 20 as you are to get any other number and there are certain numbers you won't ever get (e.g. 3).

Rolling 2d10 gives you a higher change of hitting numbers in the middle of the range (e.g. 10) but a lower chance of hitting numbers at the extreme (e.g. 2 or 20).

I've tried explaining this to my players before but I don't think they've ever quite grasped it.

I think I'll stick with the multiple dice though. While there's less chance of doing a huge amount of damage they've got less chance of getting a critical and then "wasting" it with a low damage roll. There's also something nice about bouncing a whole load of dice around the table

Thanks again,

Oly

 

[argo]

This reinforces my belief that PA must be restricted to a situation in some way,

It is restricted by the fact that 1)its limted to your BAB, so damage scales with level and 2)a miss always deals exactly 0 damage. IMX most players facing a challenging opponent will ususally not PA for more than 3-4 points at most because they still want to hit.

and that the ultimate mellee war machine is a fullplated hyborian soldier with a greatsword maxed str and the right feats.

Well, the hyborians were the dominant military power of the age.

Later.

 

[Castel]

Yes... but if you´re flattfooted, he spends much more on PA, and he still knows he is going to hit, so you will have an impossible saving throw...
I don´t like that armour give so much advantages and almost no batlle penaltys, i think that the is one think that is missing, if a fullplated warrior is tripped he stands up like if he was wearing no armour, i think that a check should be apllied, and that armour penalty should apply to that Str Check...
But that me that like to make House rules in everything.

Yes Hyborian Soldier Is the ultimate Killing machine... but even in combat they sould have a weakness.

 

[Banite]

Oddly enough, I personally think the dex based classes have a fair advantage over straight class strength based soldiers.

I mean, the plate is nice - but an emphasis on dexterity and finesse can largely make it useless; And personally, if I was running a pitched battle there would be the occasional balance checks as well (Mud, Blood soaked ground, ice), which a warrior in plate really just isn't likely to pass leaving them ripe for sneak attacks.

And look at the costs, I mean, plate costs a small fortune - that generally means the lower dexterity soldier is going to suffer with a lower dodge rating as well as shoddier DR for a great length of time whereas a character with an emphasis on dodge and dexterity can enjoy the benefits of finesse as well as being harder to hit off the bat and at lower levels.

On top of that consider that plate armor is the pinnacle of armorsmithing, it should offer amazing protection on the battlefield, especially when you consider what you give up to wear it: speed, buoyancy, ability to climb or sneak about. Plate armor has a mechanical advantage on the battlefield, because it's really well suited there while being far less useful when you need to sneak past the sheik's fanatical tribesmen, scale your way to the upper floor window in a tower, or get knocked off your boat during a scuffle against pirates ;p

As to power attack, yeah, I've found that a particularly vicious feat with two handed weapons - but in using a two handed weapon you leave yourself more open to finesse attacks by losing out on the shield, so to me it always looked like it worked out.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

When it comes to armor my players unless they are going into a war rarely wear anything heavier than a Mail Shirt. They've learned in the Hyborian World there are a lot of things out there that are best outrun than fought and to whom Full Plate is like tissue paper. That and the fact that equipment seems to keep getting lost, broken, stolen or pawned for drinking money and it's best not to have too much to lose.