Cover Question

[Nekomata]

I'm slightly confused about the "see through" cover rule.

A model may "see through" any cover within a number of inches equal to its target score.

Does that mean that it can only shoot that far, or ignore cover that thick? If the latter, then theoretically a tank hiding behind a 3" thick building or similar, could see and hit a target at it full range... like the stories i've heard of an Abrams firing through a sand dune and still killing it's targets. I think I cleared this up for myself writing it out, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Mr Evil]

cover :is a peice of terrain that you can move through and still have line of sight.

if you can see some of the target then it is obscured, if the enemy is 100% hiden then no line of sight maybe drawn.

but yeah reading it the way you have sugested if all buildings are less than 8" wide then a tank cant hide any where !!! it os a bit confusing when you take that rule in that capacity, i thought it refered to stuff like woods or rubble.

 

[Nekomata]

Ah, I looked at it again and i think your right. So tanks can't shoot through builings, oh well. I'm really looking forward to this game.

 

[Paladin]

I took it as being able to see enemies hiding directly behind cover, as in able to spot them when they are peeking around the edge shooting and what not.

 

[Hiromoon]

Line of sight has three possible categories.

Clear: No terrain (or terrain that does not block Line of Sight, such as a river or road) exists between attacker and target. No effect, shooting is possible.

Obscured: Terrain interrupts Line of Sight but both models can still partially see one another (that is, terrain hides part of the target model). The target gains a +1 bonus to its Target score.

Blocked: Terrain interrupts Line of Sight so neither model may see the other. No Line of Sight possible.

For the purposes of Line of Sight only, a firing model may ‘see through’ any Cover within a number of inches equal to its Size score. It may also ‘see through’ any Cover within a number of inches to the target model that is equal to the target model’s Size score. Models, if within terrain, may always claim Cover rather than just have an obscured Line of Sight.

Size score! Size Score!

 

[Iorwerth]

I am a little confused as well. I am not sure what happens if you have a piece of terrain covering a large area of the battlefield e.g. a wood. If you have two units within the wood can they see each other no matter how far apart they are in the woods? If they can, how do you simulate the effects of large areas of woodland/jungle and reduced visability?

So far as I can see the current rules cover the situation where you have to look through terrain to see a unit stationed behind it, not what happens when you have units within a piece of terrain.

I probably have this wrong, as i don't have the rules in front of me at the moment.

 

[Hiromoon]

Try this:

Obscured: Terrain interrupts Line of Sight but both models can still partially see one another (that is, terrain hides part of the target model). The target gains a +1 bonus to its Target score.

 

[Iorwerth]

Thanks. I will use that but I might also add a random variable for LOS in woods/junlge.

E.g. Heavy woods/jungle - each unit rolls for how far they can see on their turn - 10 + d10"

Very heavy d10"

Medium - d10 +20"

etc

One other question, slightly off the point. Can a unit react to another unit finishing its action within 10" if it does not have a LOS to it?

 

[Hiromoon]

I don't think that's really come up. Course, with only one reaction available to you....

As for the trees...if you can't draw a direct line of sight on the other guy, you cant see him. And accordingly, he can't see you. So if you're both hugging trees while in the trees.....

 

[Paladin]

One other question, slightly off the point. Can a unit react to another unit finishing its action within 10" if it does not have a LOS to it?

Yes, unless you want a house rule for having never made LOS with the unit. If you have made visual contact and you know the enemy is advancing you'll move or react in some way. Though I can see it being denied if you had a unit stealthily coming in from the flank. That would have to be in the adv. rules or house rules though.

As for the trees...if you can't draw a direct line of sight on the other guy, you cant see him. And accordingly, he can't see you.

Exactly. In a jungle forest, you won't be able to just lay down a template and say "this area is woods" like many games. You have to have true 3D terrain unless you come up with house rules (say +1 for obstructions per 6-8-10-12" of trees depending on density of the woods)

So if you're both hugging trees while in the trees.....

Then you both have cover unless you to want fire an RPG into the tree or chew it up with a .50 cal. :twisted:

 

[Larac]

Mongoose,

I think a Set of very detailed examples, with a drawing or two, would make these lines understandable by all.

As it is I think a lot of folks will just ignore them, as it is hard, (at least for me and my blunted mind) to understand exactly what you mean.

Cover

For the purposes of Line of Sight, a firing model may ‘see through’ any Cover within a number of inches equal to its Size score. It may also ‘see
through’ any Cover within a number of inches to the target model that is equal to the target model’s Size score.

(I read it as:
If the Unit is Size 3, and is in a wooded area, as long as it is within 3" of the edge it can be fired upon, also it can fire out.

Its Target if in the open would get an Obscured Mod, as there is stuff in between.

If the Target was also in the wood, both would get cover.)

{I think the simple version might be close to,

If Either or both Units are in Cover. (Like a wodded area)
A Unit can fire and be fired upon as long as the distance between Shooter and Target is equal to or less than the Size of the Largest of the two.}

Is this what is intended?
If Not what is the proper example?

Thanks
Lee

 

[Turtle]

Don't worry about that 10" reaction even without LOS rule bother you. It works fine on the table during play and represents other battlefield awareness beyond visual, including sound.

Not to mention it's just a good game mechanic that allows you to adapt to the flow of battle.

 

[Nekomata]

This is what I get from it.

A tank squadron is enchrenched in a fortified position behind 3" of dirt and sandbags. Father away, an Infantry team is moving behind a short wall, say waist high, and half an inch thick. Since the tank is size three and the infantry is size 1, the tank can see the infantry, and the infantry can see the tank. Bad for the infantry if the tank gunners haven't read the geneva convension.
Now say that wall is about a story tall, but still a half inch thick, that means LOS is block and the two can't react to each other. Or, say that waist high wall is 2" thick, then technically the infantry couldn't see out of the cover, and the tanks couldn't see through it, or similarly is if the tank fortifactions were 4" thick, because it exceeds the units size score.
So, you'd have to hope you enemy isn't smart enough to call cover and claim it as obscured LOS.

 

[Daddy Dragon]

Bad for the infantry if the tank gunners haven't read the geneva convension.

A main gun can be used to engage and destroy vehicles, installations and materiel. If the infantry are wearing (for instance) boots (or dog tags, flak vest, helmet, goggles, carrying a GI issue PB&J, etc.), or carrying weapons, those targets are legitimate. The infantry man is just collateral damage. The Geneva Convention is intended to prevent egregious use of weapons employed to maim, mutilate or inflict suffering. The intreptations of which can be vague and arbitrary.

For instance, the US and British armies both employ 120mm cannister (beehive) rounds, which basically turns a tank into a 70+ ton shotgun.

War is supposed to be an ugly and terrible business, or else we'd all be doing it.

Regards,
Larry

 

[Nekomata]

Yeah, I have a friend in the national guard that said the same thing about .50cal machineguns and antimatirial rifles.

 

[Nekomata]

That makes me think, can a weapon be fired at a specific point? Like, fire at the wall to get the infantry with splash damage?

 

[Hiromoon]

Kinda... I'm not entirely sure but you might have to attack a structure or something similar...

 

[Nekomata]

Would buildings have a to hit/kill score too or would it be something more abstract?

 

[Hiromoon]

1 sec

*checks*

Yeah, they come with target/kill stats

 

[Old Bear]

Reemeber, you have to have line of sight to fire at a unit. If you have LOS, your target point need not specifically be the unit. It can be an area of ground that is also visible providing the unit is at least partially in the fire zone.

Rule of thumb: You can't kill what you can't see - unless they got caught in a burst radius, of course. :wink: