couple questions
- Thread starter Lokai
- Start date
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The way boresights work, it would be very easy to argue 'nope, that isn't dead central and the line that runs through the centre of your ship is 2mm shy of my stand.'
Yes, its impossible to place a ship dead centre on a 1 dimensional line, you could argue that using the rules as written it is impossible to ever line up a boresight weapon even if you are moving after your target. But it is fair to use the eye as a measuring device... if it looks dead centre, then it is counted as such.
This is why we use declared boresights
This is why we use declared boresights
Harry Lonsdale
Mongoose
No you're not! :twisted:Ripple said:
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Ripple said:
I really don't like the whole idea of boresights. I'd much rather have a narrow firing arc, 30 degrees or so, from the front of the ship. MGP could stick an arc template on the counter page for us to use to measure it to avoid arguments and it would open the door to loads of different arcs for different ships.
dag'karlove
Mongoose
For those of you who dont like boresights, and haveing t think about where you are moving your ships to in order to bring thier heavy firepower to bear, DOnt play that race or dont play that ship in that race. That is the easiest way around the problem.
funny thing is Dag'karlove, if thinking about it would help, folks wouldn't be having the argument.
Think about late in a fight, Drazi Firehawk (the raid ship) is all that left vs two hermes. You'd think two hermes would be no match for it, but the reality is the firehawk will never get a single shot off, if the scenario is Annihaltion the Drazi have lost. In fact, given no time limit and fighters counting as ships, the Drazi will lose 100% of the time vs any races with fighters in any numbers. Why? Because boresight is stupid, fighter rules have issues, and a few other fun things about the game.
We like the game so we try to find ways to fix the holes without changing the nature of the game. As we have different ideas on how to do that, it leads to some spirited discussion. Don't like that aspect of the thing... don't read the posts where it comes up. As valid as telling someone to not play the race/ship/game...
Ripple
Think about late in a fight, Drazi Firehawk (the raid ship) is all that left vs two hermes. You'd think two hermes would be no match for it, but the reality is the firehawk will never get a single shot off, if the scenario is Annihaltion the Drazi have lost. In fact, given no time limit and fighters counting as ships, the Drazi will lose 100% of the time vs any races with fighters in any numbers. Why? Because boresight is stupid, fighter rules have issues, and a few other fun things about the game.
We like the game so we try to find ways to fix the holes without changing the nature of the game. As we have different ideas on how to do that, it leads to some spirited discussion. Don't like that aspect of the thing... don't read the posts where it comes up. As valid as telling someone to not play the race/ship/game...
Ripple
dag'karlove
Mongoose
Ripple said:
Good Point, Heres the counter Point. An Axial Laser is an axial Laser (Boresighting and axial are the same thing means you have to line it up). Its The level of technology that some races have that teh only way they can generate the power and focus it properly is to run it along the long axis of the ship. Yes Unfortunately all thr races are not created equal and it takes a Smart admiral witha bit of skill to manuver his or her ships ina manner to bring these weapons to bear. Ay FLeet in this game and beat any fleet any given day using its strengths to its advantages. Equality and balance= 2 different things. If you cant get creative enough to win then well too bad for you. Is that better than saying if you dont like it dont play it?
Better, but I think the real way to address the Firehawk vs 2 Hermes point is that (assuming boresight is something you still want in the game) the Drazi player has to be at least slightly in the lead of a game to win an Annihilation game. Initiative sinks make their fleet work and running out of them is a concern for the fleet in general.
Of course, not everybody likes boresight in the first place
Of course, not everybody likes boresight in the first place
Dag'karlove...
Okay we're retreating to fluff instead of game mechanics...
So tell me again how a ship that is in front of me, stays in front of me, and is not more maneuverable than me (yup... same speed and turns, but the Firehawk is agile...) can avoid my axial laser when it has a sister ship but not when it doesn't (roughly 50% of the time anyway)? What is the fluff that reliably creates this situation? Surely it can't be the technology, that doesn't change when there is no sister ship... so what is it?
Distraction? Funny, when there are a dozen ship running around I have no problem. I got it the other hermes is jamming me, but wait... why wasn't it always jamming me...hhhmmm.... Defensive maneuvers on my part! but again... when I'm jinking madly due to a dozen ships targeting me I don't have the problem.
Oh, and since you skipped over the fighter part... how exactly do the drazi deal with fighters? Can't be their own fightes... not good enough, can't give up the sinks to buy them (so the axial laser works), and no true superiority carrier... fleet or otherwise. Yet they are the largest empire outside of the big five at the start of the series.
Just saying don't answer a mechanic question with a fluff answer. I can fluff off just about anything with a bit of work, but it doesn't actually address the point. So the drazi can only win that scenario (or any scenario where the opponent brings all fighters, since they count as ships now) is to ALWAYS kill more ships than the opponent, regardless of actual value, so that his guns work.
I just see this as a flaw in the rules, in the vision of the Drazi (they're dogfighters by nature, but can't buy down to a two to one, and they suck as fighter pilots?) and in the application of some scenarios. As I like the game I try to bring these holes to the attention of the designers, and house rule things for home play to make the mechanic work, as well as the fluff.
I don't see either act as an offense vs the holy book of rules, though perhaps Matt does, in which case he can smite me.
As to bore sight, I actually like the idea. I just think an important rule was left out to simulate the ship actually spending its time trying to stay on target. The SA idea... 'follow that ship' (or whatever) would cover the fictional reality quite well of a ship spending real effort trying to keep an 'axial' laser on target.
Our staged movement doesn't allow for this, almost no phased movement system does. Real time computer games can handle it, and impulse games where each ship moves a tiny amount of its movement per impulse, handle it better, but don't have the cool mini's, so I'd like to find a compromise with how we do it now, and actually covering the idea.
Ripple
Okay we're retreating to fluff instead of game mechanics...
So tell me again how a ship that is in front of me, stays in front of me, and is not more maneuverable than me (yup... same speed and turns, but the Firehawk is agile...) can avoid my axial laser when it has a sister ship but not when it doesn't (roughly 50% of the time anyway)? What is the fluff that reliably creates this situation? Surely it can't be the technology, that doesn't change when there is no sister ship... so what is it?
Distraction? Funny, when there are a dozen ship running around I have no problem. I got it the other hermes is jamming me, but wait... why wasn't it always jamming me...hhhmmm.... Defensive maneuvers on my part! but again... when I'm jinking madly due to a dozen ships targeting me I don't have the problem.
Oh, and since you skipped over the fighter part... how exactly do the drazi deal with fighters? Can't be their own fightes... not good enough, can't give up the sinks to buy them (so the axial laser works), and no true superiority carrier... fleet or otherwise. Yet they are the largest empire outside of the big five at the start of the series.
Just saying don't answer a mechanic question with a fluff answer. I can fluff off just about anything with a bit of work, but it doesn't actually address the point. So the drazi can only win that scenario (or any scenario where the opponent brings all fighters, since they count as ships now) is to ALWAYS kill more ships than the opponent, regardless of actual value, so that his guns work.
I just see this as a flaw in the rules, in the vision of the Drazi (they're dogfighters by nature, but can't buy down to a two to one, and they suck as fighter pilots?) and in the application of some scenarios. As I like the game I try to bring these holes to the attention of the designers, and house rule things for home play to make the mechanic work, as well as the fluff.
I don't see either act as an offense vs the holy book of rules, though perhaps Matt does, in which case he can smite me.
As to bore sight, I actually like the idea. I just think an important rule was left out to simulate the ship actually spending its time trying to stay on target. The SA idea... 'follow that ship' (or whatever) would cover the fictional reality quite well of a ship spending real effort trying to keep an 'axial' laser on target.
Our staged movement doesn't allow for this, almost no phased movement system does. Real time computer games can handle it, and impulse games where each ship moves a tiny amount of its movement per impulse, handle it better, but don't have the cool mini's, so I'd like to find a compromise with how we do it now, and actually covering the idea.
Ripple
dag'karlove
Mongoose
Ripple said:
Ripple The almighty,
One I was not retreating to fluff i was retreating to Current Science. I refer to the Project to put a THEL (Tactical High energy Laser) on a 747 for TBMD (Theater Ballistic Missile Defense). Currently The idea is to run the laser along the Long axis (Thus Being Axial) of the aircraft and having to use sohisticated targeting algorythms toput the laser beam in front of said incoming missile and thus the missile runs into the beam and either A. Detonates or B. Looses all flight control and destroys itself without arming. Thats Point one.
Point 2 Is I like Boresight weapons. It shows that while The level of technology is not yet available o those races to Be able to make the weapons Focusing array move They do have the tech to be able to make the weapon in some fashion. Remember Not everyone has the tech the Minbari do. And That is in the cannon universe. I use Narn and EA (Heavily Boresight dependant fleets) and i find while boresight is a but cumbersome sometimes it shows that i know how to think and manuver. It takes (I think) a better player to get his ships in position to be able to employ his better weapons and adds a bit of difficulty to the game. This for me makes it fun.
"Our staged movement doesn't allow for this, almost no phased movement system does. Real time computer games can handle it, and impulse games where each ship moves a tiny amount of its movement per impulse, handle it better, but don't have the cool mini's, so I'd like to find a compromise with how we do it now, and actually covering the idea."
This I agree with It doesnt account for 3 dimensional space nor that everyone is manuvering while shooting (Again this Brings into play Specific targeting algorythms.)
"So tell me again how a ship that is in front of me, stays in front of me, and is not more maneuverable than me (yup... same speed and turns, but the Firehawk is agile...) can avoid my axial laser when it has a sister ship but not when it doesn't (roughly 50% of the time anyway)? What is the fluff that reliably creates this situation? Surely it can't be the technology, that doesn't change when there is no sister ship... so what is it?
Distraction? Funny, when there are a dozen ship running around I have no problem. I got it the other hermes is jamming me, but wait... why wasn't it always jamming me...hhhmmm.... Defensive maneuvers on my part! but again... when I'm jinking madly due to a dozen ships targeting me I don't have the problem.
Oh, and since you skipped over the fighter part... how exactly do the drazi deal with fighters? Can't be their own fightes... not good enough, can't give up the sinks to buy them (so the axial laser works), and no true superiority carrier... fleet or otherwise. Yet they are the largest empire outside of the big five at the start of the series. "
Dont Quite get what youre getting at here, sounds liek a rant here soo ill wait for you to clarify before i retreat to more science.
Dag
As I hopelessly fumble about to follow the argument perhaps if I ask stupid questions I will get answers.
Huh? I thought you were arguing that the boresight weapons were dumb. Shouldn't the Drazi get initiative roughly half the time? Wouldn't that allow for an agile ship to line up a boresight? One good ZORCH from a solar cannon (4AD triple damage) ought to take care of a Hermes. That would leave one Hermes to deal with. Within the mechanics of the game, it cannot avoid your laser. But the game operates largely in two dimensions. Real World boresights (WWII Submarine torpedoes for example) require some very specific maneuvering to get the weapon pointed in the right direction, so it would be possible, in a 3D game, for the Hermes to avoid the boresight by being "above" or "below" it.
Not seeing the problem.
I didn't realize the Hermes HAD jamming pods. Oh, sarcasm
So don't bring fighters if you can't hang with the opponent? Shall we go back to 1942 and have Admiral Nimitz follow the same policy? The Star Snakes are only one Dogfight point lower than Auroras, and you get 6 of them per patrol point. Used wisely, and they'll do fine against Starfuries.
Oh, and what are these Guardhawks I've been reading about?
This example you've set up is fairly poor as it involves only the end game of an unknown battle. How many points? What era EA fleet? As it is, the original scenario YOU set up did not allow for fighters. All that was left was a Firehawk and two Hermes. Where were the fighters?
Umm, you're complaining about having to kill off more of the enemy in order to win the Annihilation scenario?
Hmmm, so backstories for the races AREN'T fluff, but real science IS?
I'm sure there are some good points here, I'm just not getting them. I'm also learning the game, having spent very little time learning V.1 before diving headlong into V.2. I don't understand the Drazi really well as they've only recently made it to our table.
Ripple said:
Huh? I thought you were arguing that the boresight weapons were dumb. Shouldn't the Drazi get initiative roughly half the time? Wouldn't that allow for an agile ship to line up a boresight? One good ZORCH from a solar cannon (4AD triple damage) ought to take care of a Hermes. That would leave one Hermes to deal with. Within the mechanics of the game, it cannot avoid your laser. But the game operates largely in two dimensions. Real World boresights (WWII Submarine torpedoes for example) require some very specific maneuvering to get the weapon pointed in the right direction, so it would be possible, in a 3D game, for the Hermes to avoid the boresight by being "above" or "below" it.
Not seeing the problem.
I didn't realize the Hermes HAD jamming pods. Oh, sarcasm
So don't bring fighters if you can't hang with the opponent? Shall we go back to 1942 and have Admiral Nimitz follow the same policy? The Star Snakes are only one Dogfight point lower than Auroras, and you get 6 of them per patrol point. Used wisely, and they'll do fine against Starfuries.
Oh, and what are these Guardhawks I've been reading about?
This example you've set up is fairly poor as it involves only the end game of an unknown battle. How many points? What era EA fleet? As it is, the original scenario YOU set up did not allow for fighters. All that was left was a Firehawk and two Hermes. Where were the fighters?
Umm, you're complaining about having to kill off more of the enemy in order to win the Annihilation scenario?
Hmmm, so backstories for the races AREN'T fluff, but real science IS?
I'm sure there are some good points here, I'm just not getting them. I'm also learning the game, having spent very little time learning V.1 before diving headlong into V.2. I don't understand the Drazi really well as they've only recently made it to our table.
Ripple said:
ummm, I kinda hate to bring out the "DUH" sign on this one, but, here. Put it on...
Firehawk can only target 1 ship at a time with its big gun. So it's only going to maneuvre to chase 1 of the 2 Hermes. Thus, 1 of the two will always have the equivalent of moving After the Firehawk.
Now, initiative takes a lot of things into mind: how fast and sure the pilots/crew are at the controls (doesn't matter how maneuvreable your ship is if my crew gets the jump on your crew); how ships move in relation to each other during the course of the battle, etc, etc...
If the Drazi wins init, as it should regularly, at least one of those Hermes is going to get shot at by the Big Gun. And if it doesn't, well then any combination of things may have happened for the Hermes to be able to get out of the way (simulated in the imperfect manner of a turn-based game as an initiative win).
These aren't simulators where I can take out a Hermes and show you the myriad ways I can outmaneuvre your Firehawk if I am a better pilot or whatever. It's a turn-based game. Certain realities Must take a back-seat to making the game playable.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
The main problem that I can see in the Firehawk vs 2x Hermes scenario is if the EA player splits up this Hermes and keeps one behind the Firehawk. The Firehawk will have to go after one or the other Hermes. Whenever Drazi wins initiative, the EA player can then move the Hermes that the Firehawk isn't chasing, and which the Firehawk should have no chance to turn an fire at. The Firehawk then moves, then the Hermes in front of it moves.
dag'karlove
Mongoose
Tats called coming down to the last and being out manuvered. That means you gfot beat because you couldnt put your ships in the right place at the right time and out think your opponent. It also means you didnt bring the right mix of ships. And That is as much of the game as manuver or good dice or who your fighting.
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