Confused about how Gunner skills interact with weapon mounts

[Strategiusz]

Is the Gunner (Turret) skill, contrary to its name, used for firing fixed-mounted weapons? I can't seem to find this stated explicitly anywhere. I'm asking if this is covered in the rules somewhere, because I can just make up an answer myself. Logically, you aim a fixed weapon by positioning the ship, so it seems like it should use the Pilot skill.

I'm also not sure if Gunner (Ortillery) depends on the weapon in any way, or only on what is being fired at.

Overall, I find this all a bit of a mess. There are weapon types, mount types, and methods of use, and I can't figure out which skill applies to what. It would be very helpful if this were clearly listed out somewhere.

 

[ottarrus]

Gunner [Turrets] is used for most tasks that:
a] are not a spinal mount or bay weapon, or
b] are not orbital bombardments on a fixed position.

Therefore, if you're flying a fighter with a fixed pulse laser the Gunnery [Turret] skill applies.
IMTU, the way I handle it is that Gunnery [Turret] applies to most skill applications with ships under 1000 tons if that ship does not mount bays or screens.

 

[Condottiere]

Turrets and fixed mounts use the same type of weapons but whereas a fixed mount can only fire at targets directly ahead of it, a turret rotates and can engage any target in sight.

Turret: Operating turret-mounted weapons on board a ship.


They're the same weapon systems, so it seems a safe assumption.

Ortillery is planetary bombardment, which could be categorized as indirect fire.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Turrets and fixed mounts use the same type of weapons but whereas a fixed mount can only fire at targets directly ahead of it, a turret rotates and can engage any target in sight.

Turret: Operating turret-mounted weapons on board a ship.


They're the same weapon systems, so it seems a safe assumption.

Ortillery is planetary bombardment, which could be categorized as indirect fire.

Seems more likely that turrets are remotely-operated weapons that act independently of the ship (meaning the gunner is not actually in the turret, as this is not WW2). Fixed-mount weapons you have to aim the whole ship, so Piloting is likely a better skill to use Fixed-mounts.

 

[Saladman]

High Guard manages to very, very strongly imply that Turrets applies to fixed mounts without quite coming out and saying so plainly. And taken with there being no Fixed Mount skill, process of elimination leads to ottarus and Condottiere being correct.

You could apply the rule that "sometimes two or more skills apply" to allow a small craft fighter to substitute Pilot (Small Craft) if it's better, but it's not RAW.

 

[Condottiere]

Seems more likely that turrets are remotely-operated weapons that act independently of the ship (meaning the gunner is not actually in the turret, as this is not WW2). Fixed-mount weapons you have to aim the whole ship, so Piloting is likely a better skill to use Fixed-mounts.

I don't think you're wrong.

And you could scale that up to spinal mounts.

However, the variable might be that six minute window for a round, which could indicate needing gunnery judgement.

 

[AndrewW]

There is also:

Turrets and fixed mounts require just one gunner to operate, even if multiple weapons are mounted upon them.

Which would indicate gunner rather then pilot skill.

 

[Condottiere]

For fixed mounts, we could make piloting a boon.

 

[MasterGwydion]

For fixed mounts, we could make piloting a boon.

Except that a penalty exists for shooting and flying at the same time.

 

[Condottiere]

Multi tasking and distraction.

However, a pilot may fire any weapons in a single turret at DM-2 to the attack roll or weapons noted as being in fixed mounts (this is usually found on smaller craft that are not always large enough to accommodate turrets, such as fighters and shuttles).

If you lock the turret in one direction, let's say forward, and for fixed mounts, drop the penalty to minus one.

 

[MarcusIII]

Look at today's fighters and their fixed mount Gatling cannons. The pilot is firing the weapon. It's aimed via the HUD with the gun computer helping. Is it pilot skill or gunnery skill that the pilot trained in that is being used. Or both?? The A-10 is stick and rudder turbofan. Most commercial pilots could fly it pretty easily. Could they aim the gun well?

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

Look at today's fighters and their fixed mount Gatling cannons. The pilot is firing the weapon. It's aimed via the HUD with the gun computer helping. Is it pilot skill or gunnery skill that the pilot trained in that is being used. Or both?? The A-10 is stick and rudder turbofan. Most commercial pilots could fly it pretty easily. Could they aim the gun well?

That would be the piloting skill. The gun in the fighter is fixed forward. The HUD piper is showing where the rounds would land if fired at that moment. So in the case of the modern jet fighters it's the piloting skill. Now a gunner in a B17 or B29 - that would be the gunnery skill.

If the aircraft/ship needs to move I would use piloting. If the gun or turret is moving - gunnery. At least that's how I rule it.

 

[MarcusIII]

That would be the piloting skill. The gun in the fighter is fixed forward. The HUD piper is showing where the rounds would land if fired at that moment. So in the case of the modern jet fighters it's the piloting skill. Now a gunner in a B17 or B29 - that would be the gunnery skill

So a commercial pilot climbing into an A-10 and going into battle with no training in the cannon would use it with no penalty to hit?

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

Of course not ... because they don't have the combat piloting training to use it effectively. Just because I can drive a car does not mean I can compete in a F1 race effectively either.

 

[Arkathan]

Fighter pilots are trained on both.
A flying bus pilot would be skilled in hitting a runway without dying, and not hitting towers, but not necessarily at hitting anything with an illicit weapon mounted on the wings or fuselage.

 

[MarcusIII]

Of course not ... because they don't have the combat piloting training to use it effectively. Just because I can drive a car does not mean I can compete in a F1 race effectively either.

There is no separate combat pilot skill in Traveller. Thus, most likely would need gunnery training to not get a penalty

 

[swordtart]

"Firing a spacecraft-mounted weapon uses the Gunner skill." CRB p166 so definitely not Pilot skill.

Pilots can however manoeuvre to improve the gunners chance to hit.

"Aid Gunners: A pilot may attempt to aid thair(sic) gunners by providing a more stable firing platform along the optimum attack vector. The pilot makes a Pilot check to start a task chain with their gunners, as described on page 63."

If you are the pilot firing fixed weapons then you can presumably task chain yourself, but firing the guns will use Gunner skill (and at DM-2 if it is a turret you are firing).

Fixed Weapon is not a specialism but it would be covered under Gunner-0.

 

[Arkathan]

IMTU, the gunnery skill is based on the weapon that will fit in the mount type.
So any screen is Screens, any bay is Bay, and any weapon/defensive measure that fits in a turret or barbette is Turret, regardless of how they are mounted on the ship. A fixed weapon will thus use gunnery skill.
YMMV

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

There is no separate combat pilot skill in Traveller. Thus, most likely would need gunnery training to not get a penalty

If you need to move the craft to put the pipper on the target, that is piloting. If you need to move the gun or the platform the gun is on, then it's gunnery.

Would you have your gunner perform a planetary landing just because the only thing they need to do is put the pipper on the spot? Technically it's the same thing


I would also modify for design - i.e. if it is designed as a fixed-mount weapon or if it is a turret weapon locked forward. Even though the end result is a forward firing weapon, one is designed to be used as such (no penalty) where the other is not (full penalty).

 

[swordtart]

I suspect in neither case is the gunner physically moving the weapon. Gunner skill will cover things like deflection shooting (which at space distances and speeds will not be trivial), operating the HUD, identifying optimal points of impact, target identification and deconfliction, coordinating fire, reloading and managing any fire control systems. Doubtless there are all sorts of things that we don't know about that require there to be a roll since pointing a laser at an object kilometers away is not an entirely trivial task even if it is not moving at several kilometers per second.

If anyone is "only" putting a pipper on a target then they are just operating the ships automated systems and no skill is necessary.

If you want to introduce some mechanism like that for dogfighting then that is entirely up to you, but that would be a house rule.

Using Gunner(Turret) for fixed weapons would also be a house rule. I don't do it because I think there is only so much you can do if your gun is not able to traverse independently of the ships facing. You could also introduce a Fixed Weapon specialty as a house rule.

In Traveller space combat there are many actions the pilot might need to be taking that would adversely impact focussing on firing guns as well. They are already shooting at -2* by default just by sitting in the pilot seat. The Pilot is usually the skipper on small ships and might be making a Leadership test to further improve the Gunners aim or conducting EW actions, or evading (which as a Reaction imposes DM-1 on any subsequent actions). Every extra Action in a round increases the difficulty of each task by a level. If you conduct any Pilot actions in a round your Gunner check will be a level of a difficulty higher and also suffer a DM-2.

Many small craft will have a double cockpit for a second crewman that can specialise on the gunnery side and to provide extra actions per space round without compromising the Pilots ability to "Fly the Plane" which in my experience is the primary duty of the pilot. It also allows you to use two people who specialise in their appropriate skill rather than one super-skilled "Maverick" who can do all of it.

HG p95 gives us@:
"Most armed small craft have fixed mount weapons on Firmpoints instead of a turret weapon on a Hardpoint. These weapons require that pilots adjust their facing before using the weapon. During combat, such manoeuvres are assumed to take place during a single combat round and are incorporated as part of any Pilot and Gunner checks the pilot makes"

So explicitly HG says that a Pilot makes a Gunner check when firing fixed weapons.

* As it specifically mentions turrets, I am inclined to say -2 doesn't apply to fixed mounts. If I was to allow Gunner(Turret) to allow +DMs for fixed mounts, I'd also be inclined to apply that -2 as well.