Concerns and Possible Solutions

[tneva82]

It was always weird to have drones in SFB in the first place. You don't see them on the tellybox.
Frankly, I'd prefer they dropped the whole idea and just added more phasers to ships.
But then again, bearing in mind 95% of the SFB stuff is just made up (as in not featured in any way shape or form in the original material) then.. meh..

However that has side effect of making fleets more of the same...Less variety. Which is always problem with tv show based games. There simply ain't resources to create realistic diversity(fleet based on 1-2 ships alone? Riiiiiiight!) so there needs to be some invented stuff or we have very minimalistic fleets.

If you take out drones what would Kzinti's "big thing" be? How to separate them from the other fleets?

 

[Da Boss]

drones seemed a bit odd to me too - especially since it seems that everyone has loads of them........... apparently its from a blueprint which mentions them - although the one I have seen just says "target drones" :?

....however I also remember the in depth discussions on should the Centauri get beam weapons or not which were partly based on similar blueprints

but tneva82 is right got to have lots of invented stuff or its a limited fleet selection -a lthoiugh you can get away with it with Stargate - great supplement for B5 done for that one in the resources section.

I would say that it might have been cooler to have drones as a primarily Kzinti weapon with them having the best versions and everyone else having less capable missile systems.

 

[Stu--]

I would say that it might have been cooler to have drones as a primarily Kzinti weapon with them having the best versions and everyone else having less capable missile systems.

Yeah that would have worked much better..
but it's done now (about 20 years ago)

There's tons of variation that could have been done.
Different types of phaser / disruptor / torpedo / energy bolt / etc

Everyone else managed it, full thrust, CTA, starmada etc.
It's just a good job people love star trek or the ADB guys would be living in tents

and lets not even mention the jindarians.

 

[Greg Smith]

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Seems a pretty reasonable mix.. is there something else the USN should be defending against?

Fanatics in motor boats?

I'm not trying to stir up political debate, just pointing out that the defence doctrines of the carrier group are not quite the same as they used to be.

Although it may be fair to say that space fleet combat in many games is based on 20th century naval doctrines.

 

[Stu--]

Fanatics in motor boats?

That's what the 4 inch guns are for / 50 cals.
just imagine it's a turreted phaser-3...

 

[Trenchbucket]

The bomber/drone/bombing from distence problem plagues all gaming systems, though though luck on average one ship with drone defense 2 could hold off on average 11-13 drones in one turn with help of phasers/tractor beams.


The other issue is that even with fending these off the ships launching them have a devastaing arsenal as well, if they made drone when fired a powerdrain order "launch Drones" with auto command passes this would make people think twice about launching them or using their mainline weapons.


This in short would make drones more of a devices to draw your enemies in or support other ships across the table. and stop the spamming fleets from ruling the table as once your close they will have to choose to attack you with drones and one phaser, or use all their other weapons up close and personal.


Let me know what you think, either that or make them pay more in points for heavy drone ships.


Ta


TB :arrow:

 

[Da Boss]

major caveat - we don't they are broken yet..........so this may never be needed.

yet another "simple" option

upto 16" they are seeking weapons and so auto hit, over 16" they have to roll to hit...........

 

[Trenchbucket]

yeah but if you have to roll to hit then they can bypass shields and people will not want to have them as seeking



TB :arrow:

 

[Da Boss]

yeah but if you have to roll to hit then they can bypass shields and people will not want to have them as seekingTB :arrow:

Or they just don't

again hopefully it wn't be needed..........

 

[Captain Jonah]

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Seems a pretty reasonable mix.. is there something else the USN should be defending against?

With a carrier battle group floating off shore and being able to turn most any small country to rubble plus the fact that most countries cannot attack them except with those fanatics in bomb laden boats the carrier defence against the Soviet bombers is a bit old fashioned. Carrier groups need cover but in this day and age with widely available missiles and rockets every ship needs to be able to defend both its self and civilian traffic around it from incoming.

Fanatics in small craft with RPGs, any third world country with a few 2nd (or 3rd ) hand anti shipping launchers can interdict coastal waters. There will not be a carrier within 100 miles of the gulf if Iran decides to commit suicide and attacks shipping but there will be a lot of FF/DD sized stuff on air defence along with some mine sweepers.

In SFB carriers are generally sitting far enough back that only drones are going to reach them till PFs arrive or till the fleet in front of them breaks formation for some reason. The place you need the escorts is with the ships looking at the income drone waves from hell.

Imagine a convoy, vital supplies heading to a forward base, the enemy want to destroy them.

Captain of DD (escort commander) to commander of FF, incoming raider detected, we have Drones going for the convoy. I'll engage the raider, hold close to the convoy and cover them.

One minute later (and a crew check)
FF commander replies, love to sir but my gunnery crew are on strike because the union rep says they are not paid to defend any ship other than this one and my science officer is trying to fix the fire control software that just crashed because we asked it to target Drones that aren't coming directly at us. Give us a few minutes and we may be able to protect what is left of the convoy from the next attack :roll:

In terms of the Kzinti, well taking away the Drones and giving all of their ships another 4 Disruptors would be funny. Incoming Kzinti cruiser, 8 Disruptors at 24” :twisted:

 

[Stu--]

Fanatics in small craft with RPGs, any third world country with a few 2nd (or 3rd ) hand anti shipping launchers can interdict coastal waters. There will not be a carrier within 100 miles of the gulf if Iran decides to commit suicide and attacks shipping

Although off topic, a few things
1. There's no such thing as hand held ASM's - the smallest are truck borne.
2. Firing a few missiles is very different to interdiction
3. There are two carrier battle groups in the rough area of the Persian Gulf right now (5th Fleet assigned), and they will all be loitering in aircraft range.

 

[Rick]

It is a bit old-fashioned. It's an updated form of the old colonial 'gunboat diplomacy' which was an updated form of sailing a couple of ships into a harbour and opening the gunports. Not a new idea - in fact one of the oldest! The fact that there are 2 carrier groups around the Persian gulf indicates that is exactly what they're indulging in - if they were serious, they would have backed right off (Persian gulf and straits of Hormuz are NOT good places to park carriers when things heat up!), out of short range for missiles and still a good range for their aircraft!

The place for escorts is in a ring around the most vulnerable (and valuable) target - where they can intercept missiles (drones) and fighters way before they can get to it!

 

[Captain Jonah]

I meant 2nd or 3rd hand as in used, previous owners etc not hand held

 

[Nerroth]

You know, some of us actually like the "made-up" SFU-native stuff that is not directly tied to the TV show; if all there had been for the setting was the initial range of TV-based material written up 30-odd years ago, there arguably wouldn't be a Star Fleet Universe still around to enjoy, or at least not anything close to the extent we have on hand today.

I for one picked up an interest in the seting precisely because of one such "home-grown" empire (the Inter-Stellar Concordium, which I first saw in SFC2 for the PC), and the range of new empires and settings play a much larger part in keeping me invested than the narrow band of "TV empires" do.

But then, given how annoying I can get with things on other SFU-related boards, I wonder if anyone else thinks that is such a good thing...


...but anyway.


In terms of escorts, it's worth noting that in Federation Commander, a range of war cruiser excorts were published not so long ago in Booster Pack #92; and more escorts of the same type will appear this summer as part of the FC: Reinforcements Attack module release. As far as FC is concerned these escorts in particular do have Aegis, but are not tied to carrier operations the way they are in the Alpha Octant in SFB. (Although, it is akin to how SFB treats escorts over in the Omega Octant, where they are by no means wedded to carrier operations "historically".)

I would imagine those units being on the table for gradual transition to ACtA:SF as time goes on.


And in terms of variations between different types of direct-fire and seeking weapons used by different empires, there is a lot in the SFU; especially once you get out into the more distant settings. The original batch of TV empires were developed at the very beginning, and were the first to see their particular types of weapon combinations put together; it was only as the game progressed, and more fleets (and regions of space) were added in, that things could expand in new directions.

If you look over at ACtA:NA, the upcoming Vau will no doubt be dramatically different in terms of how their alien technology works compared to the various human fleets we've seen so far; but in order to get there, the core book had to show the five Royal House fleets as the baseline against which the more esoteric fleets can be judged.

Similarly, before the likes of the Andromedans are looked at (to say nothing of some of the truly alien empires beyond the Alpha Octant; if Mongoose ever decides to do anything with them, that is) the same kind of initial setup needed to be established here.


In short, this is by no means all that there is... so long as you're willing to give the "made-up" SFU-native material a fair look.

 

[Sgt_G]

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Seems a pretty reasonable mix.. is there something else the USN should be defending against?

Perhaps this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYGxit86Ok

 

[McKinstry]

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Seems a pretty reasonable mix.. is there something else the USN should be defending against?

Perhaps this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYGxit86Ok

The USN is at risk from bad script writing?

 

[Frankvas]

I don't thinks drones are broken/overpowered as they are. Its a couple of ships that are, the Kzinti Frigate and the Fed Ortega War Destroyer (Drone version). they are very cheap and can saturate the enemy with drones with impunity. Oh you say, they are small one photo salvo will take care of them, and you are probably right, except you have to catch them, hit them with the photons at range (+1) and then not loose your cruiser to the other 8 ships firing their drones, 9 if you didn't quite kill the one you targeted, oh and last I checked only the Feds have photons, so Gorn are screwed, romulans can't decloack, Klingons are probably the best off.

The fed ship is the worst offender since it's not very fragile and has plenty of phasers to back up its drones. Both these ships have good turn scores so cornering 9 of them while not getting shot is going to be a tricky proposition.

I shudder to think of smaller/cheaper Kzinti drone ships that might come in the future.

Frank V.

 

[Finlos]

I shudder to think of smaller/cheaper Kzinti drone ships that might come in the future.

I'm guessing that means you don't want to hear about the Kzinti Scout Drone Frigate then?? :twisted:

 

[Captain Jonah]

Nothing wrong with a 100 point agile ship with a turn mode of 3 and Drone 4, well unless you are a Plasma race :twisted:

The Feds have a hard time with them as they just keep running away, the Klinks can sort of chase them with cruisers that have 24" disruptors and drones and are agile. Tholians have webs and maybe pinwheels in a later book. The Hydrans do not have enough P-Gs to survive, The LDR is OK from a defensive point of view as ESGs and P-Gs in numbers plus 24" Disruptors to fire back.

Orion stealth Hulls will not be of much help, that 6+ stealth save means they may take a whole extra salvo of 4 to destroy :twisted:

Most races are reduced to hiding behind the terrain while trying to get close enough to catch the fast. mobile horde of small ships.

How many people have now tried battles with and against the Fed DWD fleet or the Kzinti FF horde, I know the ships aren't around yet but 2400s or counters work just as well.

 

[tneva82]

except you have to catch them, hit them with the photons at range (+1) and then not loose your cruiser to the other 8 ships firing their drones

a) range penalty is overrated since you'll be likely blowing ships up by shield penetrating photon's before shields get knocked down
b) you expect to take out kzinti fleet without taking casualties?-) Yeah maybe you lose your ship. Then you have your 8 other ships left We aren't talking about fed cruiser vs 9 kzinti fleet now are we?

[quuote], 9 if you didn't quite kill the one you targeted, oh and last I checked only the Feds have photons, so Gorn are screwed, romulans can't decloack, Klingons are probably the best off.[/quote]

They might not have photon's but they have their own weapons.