Concerns and Possible Solutions

[Keeper Nilbog]

Do think the IDF with no CQC is the way to go. Most of the other options mentioned WON'T work with Gorn (Due to Lumbering, we're almost never going to get out of front arc). Like the idea of reduced range or defensive fire only (tend to go for the last one, as it would mean to Phaser are useful against waves, but we would need to give ADD a range if it is included)

 

[Greg Smith]

Does a Fast ship on Evasive Action SA get two chances to evade seeking weapons?

I should have said "if a fast ship moving more than 12"..."

You can only move 6" when doing evade. So it is one or the other.

 

[Da Boss]

Good point well made

Does anyone think the Close Blast Doors SA is viable in ACTA;SF in this situation - it was always one of the more important SA's in ACTA

 

[Nomad]

This is all a bit...theoretical.

If there are major imbalances, a few tournaments should show them up.

Rather than the Kzinti being overgunned, I'm worried the Federation are too weak.

 

[Totenkopf]

Good point well made

Does anyone think the Close Blast Doors SA is viable in ACTA;SF in this situation - it was always one of the more important SA's in ACTA

Against drones? It only saves on a 5+ AFTER your shields have been penetrated. I would think boosting your shields makes more sense, or Evasive Action - but then it's luck of the dice whether or not you win the OCQ.

CBD is probably something I would do if I expect a volley of photons coming my way in the near future.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

This is all a bit...theoretical.

If there are major imbalances, a few tournaments should show them up.

Rather than the Kzinti being overgunned, I'm worried the Federation are too weak.

I agree, lets give things a chance to play out before running in with the nerf hammer. The Kzinti models aren't even out yet! Also if you take away the effeteness of their drones, the Kzintis are just inferior Klingons - whom some are complaining are too weak already!

Nomad, I'm don't think I'd count the feds out. In some respects they are very much like the SFB counter part - the luck of the die when you fire those photons may decide things. In SFB if you got lucky at range 5 with all your overloaded photons hitting it would win you the game - here in ACTA its all about getting those shield bypass rolls and then scoring crits with the dev+1. Sure it doesn't work every time, but the threat of it will be there and people will be overly cautious about getting into a photon's threat range. I don't think any other weapon puts that kind of fear in you (only because plasmas don't bypass shields).

Also the versitility of the feds combined drone racks are amazing - especially on the new war ships most of which seem to be packing 2AD of drones or more. They can ADD like crazy.

-Tim

 

[tneva82]

I agree, lets give things a chance to play out before running in with the nerf hammer. The Kzinti models aren't even out yet! Also if you take away the effeteness of their drones, the Kzintis are just inferior Klingons - whom some are complaining are too weak already!

Klingons are too weak! Romulans are too weak! Federation is too weak! Gorn is too weak!

Kinda positive that almost every race gets that complaint already :twisted:

 

[deadshane]

I agree, lets give things a chance to play out before running in with the nerf hammer. The Kzinti models aren't even out yet! Also if you take away the effeteness of their drones, the Kzintis are just inferior Klingons - whom some are complaining are too weak already!

Klingons are too weak! Romulans are too weak! Federation is too weak! Gorn is too weak!

Kinda positive that almost every race gets that complaint already :twisted:

+1 to that.

The only race that hasnt been accused of being too weak are the Kzinti. Largely due to the fact that people havent figured out how to stop drones. Honestly, the only race out there that would have MASSIVE problems with the Kzinti are the Gorn. (who historically probablly never fought them)

If I was to rate the fleets today in order of tactical viability and ease of use....I'd probably rate them thus:

1.Federation
2.Klingons
3.Kzinti
4.Romulan
5.Gorn
6.Tholian

....I don't rate the Orion fleet b/c they're not a true fleet and in my opinion should be only scenarios. If you spam drones with them like the unimaginative are gravitating toward they're probably on par with Klingon's or Kzinti. Personally, I think they'd be better/more fun if you spammed photons.

People only think that the Kzinti are king in this game b/c they havent realised the POWER of direct fire weapons at range. Klingons are great at accomplishing this while playing keep away. Feds can ruin your game early with a well placed photon salvo and lots of phaser-1's.

Gorn have a little room for complaints because lumbering in this game is SOO BAAAD! They've got good arcs of fire though so they just need to make sure that the first pass devestates their opponent. They also have a higher need to access their destroyers which are not lumbering. Good news here is that their destroyers are on par with other races cruisers as far as sheilds and hit points go....and they're not lumbering.

The only race that can complain and be justified at this point are the Tholians...for obvious reasons. I find it amusing to no end that Kzinti appear to not be able to beat them if the Tholians force a draw....funny. :lol:

 

[billclo]

No Kzin in his right mind will tangle with a Tholian, especially if they ever get rules for web.

Wait til you see the Tholian's larger ships; they aren't half bad, though they aren't uber-ships.

And you don't want to deal with the Tholian wedding-cake web around a starbase or capital, lemme tell you. :shock:

 

[dalek4890l]

This is all a bit...theoretical.

If there are major imbalances, a few tournaments should show them up.

I agree, but if it is shown that the Kzinti mass drone attacks are over-powered I would possibly suggest a minor tweak to the defensive fire rule. How about making the cqc only 6 if the range from the firer to the target is over 12" and possibly reducing it to 4 if the range is over 24". This would reduce the worry that some people have of effective massed long range volleys. If you like to justify new rules the reason for this could be that the ships conducting defensive fire have longer to make calculations about targets and that they are identifying drones and their targets.It would make plasma weapons a bit useless at ranges of over 12" but because of energy bleed they are that already.

A minor problem I can foresee with this proposed rule is that if it is adopted then someone will start asking for a bonus when evading drones at longer range. I can see an argument for a cqc bonus of +1 if the range is over 18".

To be honest though I think that as players with Kzinti fleets start getting roundly hammered by everyone (except possibly the Gorns) it will be shown that there isn't really a problem.

 

[Captain Jonah]

It also becomes more complex since you than have several numbers which need to be measured to apply. Keep it simple. :lol:

It is a defensive action, limit it to defensive fire. No crew check but you cannot fire at anything except seeking weapons, shuttles, fighters or space monsters that count as such like the terrifying space piranha swarm or those damm subspace bugs that try to mate with the warp drive and can phase through the shields unless you shoot them. :shock:

 

[deadshane]

I don't like any idea that involves changing existing rules considering that they've already been playtested for balance by the designers and such.

Introducing new orders (like my "Launch Wild Weasel!" order above) is a much simpler way to address problems. It's easy to institute as well in a future expansion.

 

[tneva82]

I don't like any idea that involves changing existing rules considering that they've already been playtested for balance by the designers and such.

Introducing new orders (like my "Launch Wild Weasel!" order above) is a much simpler way to address problems. It's easy to institute as well in a future expansion.

Well to be fair just 'cause it goes through playtesting doesn't QUARANTEE it's not needed to change. There's only limited time to playtest, playtesters are just humans and perfect balance is impossible to archieve anyway.

Ergo there ARE imbalances in the game. They are impossible to avoid. So few ways to deal with it:

a) ignore them. They get fixed(while new things get broken) when new edition is released
b) spot worst offenders(since perfect balance is impossible to archieve) and errata them to be more fair(offered solution here)
c) if one fleet is notably stronger make sure there's enough help to poorer fleets in next release that they can then counter. Sort of codex creep. Problem being this leaves old ships still in bad shape so it could end up situation where one side uses only the newer situations while the inefficient older ships are left on shelves. And this could break the balance against the previously broken fleet...

 

[Humbaba]

I do not think you want a CQ modifier for range, but you could say that Intensify Defensive fire always works against enemies firing at >18” and can only be used against shorter ranged enemies with the successful CQ check. This is a subtlety that may correct a little more for the fact that in SFB drones had to cover the distance allowing for more defensive fire. It would not hurt the plasma races and would really narrow down the range band for drone spamming.

 

[Stu--]

Interesting discussion, I'm not convinced drones are overpowered.
Lets not forget that for Kzinti they are the primary weapon system.
Although, to be fair they also have disruptors but they're generally down on phasers.

Couple of thoughts:
- On average drones do 3 hits all against the shields
- There are many options for shooting them down
- Anti-drones are exceptionally effective

I just think you have to get into the drone ships, they have the range but there's only so much table, and if they turn away to keep distance they have surrendered the initiative.

 

[Captain Jonah]

quote="Stu--"]Interesting discussion, I'm not convinced drones are overpowered.
Lets not forget that for Kzinti they are the primary weapon system.
Although, to be fair they also have disruptors but they're generally down on phasers.

Couple of thoughts:
- On average drones do 3 hits all against the shields
- There are many options for shooting them down
- Anti-drones are exceptionally effective

I just think you have to get into the drone ships, they have the range but there's only so much table, and if they turn away to keep distance they have surrendered the initiative.[/quote]

People keep saying the many options thing, you have ADDs which have a very finite ammo supply, you have phasers and you have those 2 tractors with a 50% chance each.

ADD 1s will be out of ammo on average after the second drone 4 salvo, ADD2s will last a bit longer, ADD4s on the feds will either be left alone or swamped and used up in a turn or two.

Phasers can fire every round. Just about every ship in the game has enough phasers to stand off a Drone 4 wave, some can stand off two or even three waves.

What kills people is the concentration of fire from every ship in line of sight, 36" is a heck of a range and means that any Kzinti ship that can line of sight you can add to the fire on you this turn. You need to hug terrain and watch for Kzinti moving to get line of sight while still out of range of return fire.

Kzinti being down on phasers isn't as big a problem as you would think since 4 of your phasers are likely going to be shooting down Drones not shooting the Kzinti ships (see above for ADDS becoming useless quickly).

In terms of surrendering Initiative, they are forcing you to chase them, that is making you respond to their tactics. Not sure how that counts as them having surrendered the initiative :lol:

 

[Stu--]

Maybe the best way is to use the new trait from the soon to be published addition for nobla armada.

Escort: This ship is designed with advanced systems and focussed
gatling lasers that are designed to protect other ships in the fleet.
Any gatling lasers that have a friendly ship within 4 inches and
within their arc of fire may be used to protect that ship as if they
were actually mounted upon it.

Obviously it needs modification from the above rule and an associated points cost applying to it.


(oh and I hope nobody from mongoose objects to me quoting this - it is in the preview freely available on this website..)

 

[tneva82]

What kills people is the concentration of fire from every ship in line of sight, 36" is a heck of a range and means that any Kzinti ship that can line of sight you can add to the fire on you this turn. You need to hug terrain and watch for Kzinti moving to get line of sight while still out of range of return fire.

Well. Fed fleet has effective photon range of what? 15"+12"? Gives pretty long reach where they can concentrate their fleet's photons and maul/blow up reasonably sized ship(or several smaller) per turn. Yeah they might lose on range a bit but then again photon's can't be intercepted and of course photon's can go straight through the shields(which is what photon's are aiming for anyway. Forget the shield hits. Hits to the internals is what you are looking for! Shield hits are just bonus in case you roll less than average amount of 6's).

Yeah fleet against kzinti is going to take casualties. Would be bad for game balance if they wouldn't...

Crux is what will happen when enemy gets into range. When fed gets those photon's into range will kzinti ships start blowing up?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Maybe the best way is to use the new trait from the soon to be published addition for noble armada.

Escort:

(oh and I hope nobody from mongoose objects to me quoting this - it is in the preview freely available on this website..)

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Thing is with a dedicated escort, say the plasma guys with D racks, you end up buying a few just for defence against the drone races and they then become first target since the rest of the fleet cannot defend them. As has been mentioned before, you get Codex (or fleet :wink: ) creep where the ships from the new book become standard and the old stuff drops by the wayside because it cannot survive. It makes a lot of money for a certain figure maker in the UK because you end up having to by the latest book and then all the new figures just to keep up.

We are looking at highly advanced star ships here, every one of them should have the ability to act like an Aegis system, escorts should be determined by weapon fit, any ship should be able to shoot down incoming drones/fighters/space piranha.

In terms of Mongoose. Heck its not like they know where you live, oh, unless you have ordered something from them in which case they do know where you live :twisted:

 

[Stu--]

SFB has escorts, they are stuck like glue to carriers due to outmoded ideas involving US battle groups where as these days half the frigates and destroyers out there seem to be air defence (and the other half are sub defence :lol: )

Seems a pretty reasonable mix.. is there something else the USN should be defending against?




It was always weird to have drones in SFB in the first place. You don't see them on the tellybox.
Frankly, I'd prefer they dropped the whole idea and just added more phasers to ships.
But then again, bearing in mind 95% of the SFB stuff is just made up (as in not featured in any way shape or form in the original material) then.. meh..