Concerns and Possible Solutions

Humbaba

Mongoose
I spent a significant amount of time this past weekend examining a thorny issue raised by Frankvas in his thread “So ….. Whos taking Kzinti to the upcoming tournament in the UK?” The specific issue raised has to do with spamming cheap drone ships to produce a critical mass of drones to overwhelm the opponent’s drone defenses creating an unbalanced tournament fleet. In working on this issue I came up with a larger philosophical issue that I am hoping can be addressed.
Before I launch into it, a bit of my history to help illustrate the eventual point of this post. I originally got into ACTA in the B5 days thanks to a demo run by Chernobyl at Kublacon in California. I think that ACTA is a terrific system that carefully balances complexity and tactical options and hits right in the sweet spot for a miniatures game. I have supported this by purchasing several hundred dollars worth of ships over that original ACTA run. I played in convention tournaments, ran some convention tournaments, and played in online matches with people across the USA, the UK, and Europe through Vassal. In fact, in playing in an online campaign with players across the USA I discovered that the organizer randomly lived a few blocks from my house and he is now the core of my regular miniatures group. I am a published game designer (know where near the league of Mongoose – I am a freelance guy and thus make my living elsewhere), which gives me an appreciation of the extreme challenges of the design, play testing and rule writing process. I am posting this thread because I want to see ACTA:SF succeed; I believe the potential is immense with fun and challenge for all for years to come.
I spent the weekend doing a lot of math, testing special formations and running simulations for a meet up with Frankvas on Sunday to test his concerns about drone spamming. I found it to be a tricky issue, but more importantly it lead me to my philosophical dilemma, which is tournament stalemating. My initial numbers for drone spamming were very concerning (1-2 capital ships die per turn starting at range 36”). I thought that Captain Jonah hit the solution when he asked about dropping the crew quality check for Intensify Defensive Firepower. I found that in an “X” formation with all ships on IDF, fleets could nullify enough drones to close (especially the Klingons) and, of course, the Romulans are immune while cloaked (but only move 6”). Of course the Tholians are the big winners here, but pure rock, paper, scissors is more than a bit unsatisfying. The problem then becomes that you have to use all special actions (trust me, rushing fast ships does not work mathematically) while the drone player can use All Power to Engines tangent to your advance and be very difficult to catch if he chooses not to engage – leading to a stalemate. In fact, I realized, this was a bigger problem with the Romulans than with the drones. A Romulan player needs to uncloak and fire at short range to have an advantage, but only can move 6”, which lets the other player, fly away if they wish. In short, the players sort of have to agree to a range at which they each think the risk is acceptable to start the fight at and if they do not agree before the turns are up, they do virtually nothing. Neither is likely to win the tournament – they both lose. Either player can cause the issue. Similar things happen with the Gorn if they take lumbering ships, etc.
To solve this, I propose that tournament matches have scenario objectives that are equal too, or out weigh the value of destroyed ships. After all, few battles are fought just to inflict casualties, there is usually something else at stake. Many of the current scenarios have a single 100 point objective over the course of the game; I believe that higher points gained over the course of the game with lead to more interesting matches and possibly, more variety in fleet design (especially as more specialized ships are released over the coming months and years).
As for drone spamming, although elegant in its way, doing away with IDF crew checks will destroy the effectiveness of the plasma races and ultimately force a rebalance of most of the ships in the game; this is not an acceptable solution. Frankvas suggested to me the answer that I believe is correct: errata the heavy drone ships (small ships with 3+ drones and medium ships with 4+ drones, etc.) to add firing arcs for the drones. This prevents overwhelming drones at range from one direction, which encourages drone ships to mix it up to achieve firepower against the enemy’s fleet. The ~100 point ships could have 3 drones F, S, P (and be at somewhat reduce points), the mid range ships could be at F, S, P, A and F, S, P, T at a little higher points and the ships with more then four drones would have 1 each in F, S, P, A and all the rest as T. This is a simulated (but untested!) solution that would, no doubt, require a little bit of tweaking.
I hope that someone tries drone spamming at this first major tournament so that all of the best minds can take a crack at the issue and I hope that whatever changes, if any, can be made by errata early to help this game achieve the grand success that it richly deserves.

-Humbaba
 
Dude! Please use the <enter> key to break up paragraphs with a blank line between. It makes reading MUCH easier.
 
Okay, now that I read all that, you make some good points. However, putting restricted firing arcs on drones is something I would have to vote 'no' on. It doesn't fit the SFU background, for one thing. I could be persuaded to change my mind is a TON of analysis proves conclusively that it needs to be done.
 
Re restricting the drone arcs, firstly as Sgt_G says it doesn't fit with the SFB background.

Secondly it makes no sense technologicaly, hey guys I have a warp speed starship with shields, phasers, photon torpedoes, Disruptors, but I cannot make a drone that can turn corners. :lol:

Much as many of todays warships use Vertical launch systems so will the ships of the SFB verse, no matter which way you fire them they will seek the enemy ship.

Re taking away the IDF crew check. A ship has one special action a turn, there are a number to chose from among which is the one that the plasma and photon users have no choice but to take, that being Reload. Then you have full speed ahead, repair the criticals, boost the shields and a number of other usefull ones.

When the fleets are at a distance and throwing drones at each other you can boost shields which will hold off (on average) 2 or 3 hits before your shields and ship take damage or you have a 50% change of IDF. If you fail the IDF roll you have wasted your special action for the turn. If some of your ships make the IDF and others do not then the IDF ships become the target since the ones who failed cannot support them.

Up close you have ships overloading and reloading weapons, shields being restored, high speed runs to escape so sheilds can be rebuilt, damage control. In short lots of things to use that one special action on. An entire fleet on IDF at close range is going to reduce a plasma wave down significantly, perhaps too significantly, but they are still going to be taking a pounding from other weapons.

I don't want to see any race unbalanced, I don't want to see any race being left unplayed becasue they become victimes to the Drone Zerg. Kzinti come with a Drone Zerg built in, how many Fed fleets will have a pair of DWDs to go with the BC and a few extras for that 15+ drone attack. The Klingons will get D6Ds later on, the Orions have already got a Drone fleet to make the Kzinti look on in envy.

Having given the matter some though, as have others on this forum I would like to ask people with fleets or counters (and some friends) to try playtesting some options.

Option 1. IDF has no crew roll, no other effect. In particular the side effect of impact on Plasma races

Option 2. IDF has no crew roll but a ship on IDF cannot fire any heavy weapons. (phasers and ADDs only)

Option 3 IDF has no crew roll but a ship on IDF can only fire AT seeking weapons, shuttles and fighters. So Drones can be used defensively.

Option 4 IDF has no crew roll but a ship on IDF can only fire defensive and seeking weapons. So phasers and ADDs (and ESGs when they get here) along with Drones and plasmas which are self seekers and can function while the ships fire control is focused on defending against incoming.

Lets see if we can come up with a disadvantage to IDF that makes it worthwhile but not overpowering and doesn't unbalance the game by just removing the crew check. :wink:
 
And people wonder why SFB has 300 pages of rules. You try to fix one thing here, and four things over there break. Fix those, a three more things break. Fix those, and the thing you tried to fix in the first place is now broken. After a couple years, the rulebook went from 50 to 250 pages.
 
For those who say adding launch arcs doesn't fit with the SFU, let me point out two things:

1) as spence pointed out "this is not Star Fleet Battles"

2) I can find multiple posts by Mike West and other SFB/FC experts who state that drones aren't primarily a weapon system for damage, but instead they are used to influence and limit your opponents movement. THIS IDEA IS LOST ON F&E PLAYERS, who tend to view battles as slug matches based on compot.
 
How about a new special order....

LAUNCH WILD WEASEL!
Crew Quality Check:Automatic
Power Drain: Yes
Effect:A shuttle is launched that jams seeking weapons and interferes with their targeting abilities. So long as the launching ship does not fire weapons, all seeking weapons fired at the launching ship are restricted to a range of 12". Within 12" the targetting system of the weapon is close enough to the larger target to not be fooled by the decoy. Destroying the shuttle causes the ship to be targetable again the next turn as the enemy's sensors recalibrate.

In my honest opinion, shuttles are REALLY underused. This either forces the Kzinti to close or gives time to the other race to close the distance. Also, and I've noted a big problem here, there's been trouble nerfing the kzinti drone swarms w/o doing the same to the plasma races....this really doesnt nerf plasma that much since plasma is rarely fired over 12" effectively. You're not exactly immune to long range kzinti fleets b/c your supply of shuttles is limited.

I think this, or something more playtested for balance along these lines, may fix our woes. I like that this little rule makes the frigate spam list really suck....a lot.
 
logical_proof said:
For those who say adding launch arcs doesn't fit with the SFU, let me point out two things:

1) as spence pointed out "this is not Star Fleet Battles"

2) I can find multiple posts by Mike West and other SFB/FC experts who state that drones aren't primarily a weapon system for damage, but instead they are used to influence and limit your opponents movement. THIS IDEA IS LOST ON F&E PLAYERS, who tend to view battles as slug matches based on compot.

True it isn't SFB but then again it should try to maintain some semblance of internal logic. Otherwise you could have phasers as seeking weapons as well.

If they have been 360 degree before logically they should be similar now.

Also if you are telling me the drones can't turn(required for them to be non-360 degree firearc weapon) then they are pretty darn easy to avoid. Change course by 1 degree(probably less is sufficiently) and whee the drones miss.

Unless they go faster than they can be detected then weapon needs to be intelligent seeking weapon=it can manouver=launch tube pointing at wrong direction is no obstacle at all.

So not only you want to claim drones in far future suddenly get sudden performance decrease compared to similar idea weapons of OUR date you then expect them to gain those abilities MID FLIGHT(so as to actually hit) and the system to work against established background...

...I think easier option is simply to find another way to balance the offending fleet if it's proven via actual games that they are broken ;) Remove the CQ from IDF. Increase point cost. SOMETHING! But don't go for logic defying "weapon system becomes worse in future, then suddenly mid-flight gains abilities it lost during launch process" route ;)
 
The introduction of Phaser-G armed ships will help equalize this situation. The Kzinti are exactly why I started the Phaser-G thread. To defend against a heavily drone armed fleet, you need strong denfensive weapons.
 
Lincolnlog said:
The introduction of Phaser-G armed ships will help equalize this situation. The Kzinti are exactly why I started the Phaser-G thread. To defend against a heavily drone armed fleet, you need strong denfensive weapons.

...but does very little to help the current ships.
 
You don't have to rely on IDF ! to deal with large numbers of drones. All Power To Engines gives you a chance to evade any drone fired at you (opposed CQC) as long as you end with a turn so you're not facing the shooter (which can limit his movement options if he wants to counter this). He might be able to extend range while firing (terrain permitting), but he's going to run out of table by the third turn at most on typical 6' x 4' board.
 
I had this concern, too when I saw, at a high level, how ACTA would work with drones.

I think the Wild Weasel solution may need to be looked at. FC isn't much better at fleet battles than SFB, so this issue may not have come up in that game. ACTA, OTOH, will be heavily into fleet battles, so will need to be balanced around massed seeking weapons.
 
logical_proof said:
I can find multiple posts by Mike West and other SFB/FC experts who state that drones aren't primarily a weapon system for damage, but instead they are used to influence and limit your opponents movement. THIS IDEA IS LOST ON F&E PLAYERS, who tend to view battles as slug matches based on compot.

As people keep saying to me. You are not playing SFB/FC :lol:

Drones can be used tactically to limit movements, force actions and otherwise do things other than just blow up. In SFB/FC.

In ACTA-SFB they instantly cross the 36” range and hit you. They cannot be dropped as a swarm of slow movers to force a target to either waste phasers or to move away, they cannot be used in fact for anything other than going bang. :twisted:

Drones are a primary weapon system with a 36” range, unlimited ammo, no reload and doing 1D6 damage per hit with the downside being they can be shot down. With fleets starting 48” apart you can surge forward and begin overwhelming your enemy on turn 1. Something no other weapon can do. As regards the Drone being not primarily a weapon system for Damage, ask someone who just had a cruiser toasted on turn one by 20+ Drones if that is the case :shock:

It’s the shooting down part we are talking about.

As to a solution.

The rules have deliberately made shuttles less versatile than they can be in the ADB games, Suicide shuttles are it. If there are wild weasels then why not scatter packs. Every Klink ship launches a shuttle with 6 Drones on board turn 1 and fires them plus onboard drones turn 2. INCOMING :shock:

Changing points costs etc not an option unless the few hundred games played over the next month of two shows them to be over or under priced.

The reason I was and am looking at a downside to IDF to counter removing the crew check is both to balance it but also to retain the tactical side of things.

If I am planning what to do next turn and the turn after based on what is happening now I want to know what I can and cannot do. A high energy turn carrys great risk and is a last resort thing. Firing at drones or plasmas attacking the ship next to you is not.

If you look at the tactical situation and see that the Klinks are going to be throwing 12 Drones at you this turn and the C7 is closing you want to decide what to do before hand, not have to wait on the result of random dice rolls to decide your tactics for you. 12 Drones, ok so I put those three ships on IDF to cover the two in front of them, boost shields on my BC that is going head to head and overload the photons on the frigate for a fast flank shot behind the C7s front shield.

I would rather not then find one ship made the roll and two failed so I have no defence against the drones (and two shps with no special actions) or put an entire fleet in IDF only to have a few make it and most fail with no control over which is which.

I would like to see there being a downside to IDF but it not requiring a crew check. The decision to use IDF should be something considered by the player, do I put these ships on IDF accepting that they are then restricted, do I do other things with these ships hoping the defence of the ships on IDF is enough but leaving me options.

There are a lot of games where tactics are limited by dice rolls, I prefer games where it’s the player who decides, for good or bad, what he does with his ships.

A balanced change to IDF is probably the simplest way, no need for new abilities or Traits, no changing ship stats. Heck you could restrict it to covering ships within 6” to stop wide spread fleets using the 18” P1 range for IDF fire.
 
Shuttles were much more useful in earlier versions of the rules but their weapons were dropped and their ability to act as defence screen as not being SFU..........

We are not sure their is a problem yet but if there is - you culd just make IDF no CQ check but power - you cna still move as normal but you would only be firing your "defensive" phasers - seems to fit nicely ?

Direct fire missile had arcs in earlier versions of ACTA and worked just fine. you could easily say that due to the enemy ECM, the distances involved and numerous other hand waves that the ship needs to have them in arc to stand a chance of hitting the target.

However at present we still need to test the fleets - some people are saying its broken - others who have posted battle reports here are suggesting that it is not. Early days yet I feel............

Evasive Action SA also has no down sides and allows you a (in a normal game) a opposed roll to ignore any /all seeking weapons from a particular ship - rolling for each ship individually - not sure of the odds.

I am not sure all of the options have been explored ?

One question that I have just thought off

Does a Fast ship on Evasive Action SA get two chances to evade seeking weapons?
 
Another factor that is ignored in the analysis is stellar debris, which will either stop drones cold or at least give a 5+ save vs any damage. While large planets, dust clouds and asteroids are uncommon in SFB/FC, they're pretty common on the ACTA tabletop so must be considered.
 
msprange said:
Da Boss said:
I am not sure all of the options have been explored ?

I guarantee they haven't :)

Da Boss said:
Does a Fast ship on Evasive Action SA get two chances to evade seeking weapons?

Umm... why would it?
I should have said "if a fast ship moving more than 12"..."

You would get a Opposed CQ Check versus Seeking because you are travelling more than 12" and then a second if you successfully execute the SA for taking Evasive Action?

Bit like an Orion ship on Evasive Action would get a opposed CQ check then a Stealth roll versus an attack?
 
deadshane said:
Lincolnlog said:
The introduction of Phaser-G armed ships will help equalize this situation. The Kzinti are exactly why I started the Phaser-G thread. To defend against a heavily drone armed fleet, you need strong denfensive weapons.

...but does very little to help the current ships.

But I believe Matthew Sprange indicated early on that there would be give me's in the Mongoose blog or newsletter. The Fed FF/FFG has several Variants with Phaser-G. Don't need a new miniature, just Ship/weapons stats.
 
Lincolnlog said:
deadshane said:
Lincolnlog said:
The introduction of Phaser-G armed ships will help equalize this situation. The Kzinti are exactly why I started the Phaser-G thread. To defend against a heavily drone armed fleet, you need strong denfensive weapons.

...but does very little to help the current ships.

But I believe Matthew Sprange indicated early on that there would be give me's in the Mongoose blog or newsletter. The Fed FF/FFG has several Variants with Phaser-G. Don't need a new miniature, just Ship/weapons stats.

I think he's not referring to just models.

It's all fine and dandy if new ships can deal with them but that leaves the OLDER ships unusable.

Or put it in other words: Do we have situation from year now where ships in current book are more or less obsolete because they can't cope with the drone swarm out of hell but newer ships can? Called also codex creep in some areas of the world ;)

(now whether drone fleet is broken I don't know. I don't even have a rulebook(maybe I'll get it when pdf version comes out. Maybe I can get to play it via vassal :D)! I leave deciding that that to others)
 
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