Conan's Clan

[Supplement Four]

As far as I know (and I may be forgotting one--Roberts may have mentioned it in Conan The Bold, but if he did, I'm sure what he wrote is in tune with his Valorus book.), the only stories that feature Conan's Cimmerian clan are Turtledove's Conan of Venarium and Roberts' Conan The Valorous.

I just finished reading Venarium, and I'm about half the way through Valorous (both are excellent reads, btw).

Upon first glance, it looks like the authors disregarded each other (well, Turtledove disregarded, or never looked at, Roberts' book) and went about describing Conan's clan the way that they wanted to as if nothing else were ever written about the topic.

My first take is just to forget the differences and enjoy either book for what they are....

But, I started thinking...(Oh, my!). You know...what Turtledove wrote about Conan's clan and what Roberts wrote about the same can be handwaved/retconned/whatever-the-term to work together as part of Conan's past.

A little more "detail" about his clan, if you will.

You see, in Venarium, Conan's clan is all but wiped out at the hands of the Aquilonians...

Well, what if...

What if those few who survived the destruction of Conan's clanholme became the semi-nomadic people that Conan visitis in Valorous? I just finished reading Venarium, and I don't remember Conan's clan ever actually being named. But, if I'm wrong, and it is named in that book, we'd have two names for the same clan. Well, what if the few survivors from Venarium merged with another clan for survival?

Conan's visit in Valorous is about a decade, give or take a few years, after the Venarium story, so the details about the two clans could very well be considered the story of what has happened to Conan's people.

Thoughts?

(Yeah, I know both stories may not completely jive with some of Howard's letters...but there's something to be said about giving precedence to published stories over author ideals that he, himself, may have changed had he written a story about Conan's clan.

 

[Spectator]

I read a review of Turtledove's book and when Vincent von D re-iterated his distate for it a few weeks ago it has never been considered to be acceptable reading material for me.

It appears that the story is on par w/ Roland Green's Conan novels in terms of believability.

 

[Supplement Four]

I read a review of Turtledove's book and when Vincent von D re-iterated his distate for it a few weeks ago it has never been considered to be acceptable reading material for me.

It appears that the story is on par w/ Roland Green's Conan novels in terms of believability.

Yeah, Vincent doesn't like the book and neither does Dale Rippke. I just finished it, and I have to be the contrarian because I think its definitely one of the better Conan pastiches.

From what I gather, the criticism of the book is more about its break with "canon" (and, we all know "canon" can be a slippery slope with Conan, whether you're a Howard purist, a Rippke follower, or open to the de Camp or Jordan timelines, etc.) than it is about the writing of the book. I've tried to get through one of Rolan Green's books. It was like reading something a high schooler wrote. I could follow it, but a competent tale weaver he is not.

Turtledove's writing is nothing of the sort. The characterization is quite good. I totally "bought" the book. He took the tact of writing the story from two different points of view--the Aquilonians and the Cimmerians--and I found myself cheering for whatever side I happened to be reading a the the moment.

I was surprised and pleased that the book wasn't written from a Cimmerian-good-Aquilonian-bad point of view. It made the issue of Venarium "grey" and worldly rather than black-n-white without depth.

I recommend the book. If you like pastiches and non-Howard Conan tales, then I would say this is one to get. I liked it a lot.

The biggest problem with the book, to my mind, though, is the placement of Conan's village. Turtledove never specifically states where it is, but the story is only plausible if Conan's clan resides in south-eastern/south-central Venarium, not far from the Aquilonian outpost. In the book, characters were able to ride between the two in a comfortable hour or three. We all know, of course, that Conan's village is supposed to be in north-eastern Cimmeria.

There's a few other "problems" with the book, too. For example, Conan's grandfather is missing--who is supposed to be a huge influence on Conan (and the major reason Conan leaves his clan so early). It can be guessed, though, that Conan's grandfather has died before Conan is twelve years old (when Turtledove's books begins).

Another thing that is brought up about the book is the use of bows by Cimmerians. Although they are not actually used all that much, it sure seems that the Cimmerians don't have an issue with the distance weapon. I'm OK with that--sometimes you've got to accept that some things will be different when reading stuff by different authors. Plus, I think of the Cimmerians beginning to change their outlook on bows. They're smart people, and they've seen the Picts use bows to good effect for centuries. Cimmerians can be exceptional bow hunters. So, it's natural to adopt the bow as a war weapon at some point in a culture's life cycle. I imagine something similar happened when the Cimmerians moved from spears to swords as their primary weapon.

The book does have some peculiarities, but the bottom line is, if you can accept those transgressions, Turtledove has written a damn good book.

People will disagree. But, I really enjoyed it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Think you ment to say North-west of Cimmeria, or atleast that where it shown in Road of Kings and Return to Road of Kings ???

You're correct. I meant north-west. The Howard-Miller letter establishes Conan's clan as semi-nomadic or nomadic roving over northwestern Cimmeria.





What's interesting is that, from context, Roberts seems to put Conan's clan in the correct location, in north-western Cimmeria near the Broken Leg lands mentioned in the Cimmeria sourcebook.

When Conan first returns to his kinsmen in Valorous, he encounters two of them watching over cattle. Conan helps them drive the cattle down into Broken Leg Glen.

That fits. Maybe Whitaker consulted Roberts' book when he wrote the Cimmeria sourcebook. He must have because Whitaker also describes Conan's clan as the Canach/Conarch/Snowhawk clan.

The differing names could be a result of merged clans, as I postulate in the OP.

Or, maybe the differing names singular/plural forms of the same Cimmerian word, not unlike Nordheimer/Nordheimir. Canach/Conarch. Maybe those words, Canach/Conarch, are Cimmerian words for "Snowhawk".

Just speculating.





Now, here's something interesting...

When Conan does travel into Cimmeria and meets up with those two warriors from his clan, the cattle his kinsmen are overseeing is grazing on land where Venarium stood.

Now, this means one of two things: Either Roberts has also placed Conan's clan in southern Cimmeria (which does not seem mesh with the description in the book--the clan seems to inhabit northwestern Cimmeria). Or, Venarium is located farther north than is generally thought.





HERE'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER

Imagine a map of Cimmeria. Now, put a dot in the exact center of the country and break it into four quadrants.

Now, place Conan's clan in the northwestern quadrant, but closer to the horizontal line bisecting the country rather than close to the Eiglophian Mountains.

Next, consider how far the Aquilonians could have pushed into Cimmeria if their scouts were accurate and the army took the path of least resistance through a less populated southern trek through the country (if such an area exists).

Is it possible that Venarium is farther inside Cimmeria than is generally thought? And, is it possible that Conan's clanholme is still in northwest Cimmeria but farther south than is generally thought so that the two, Conan's clan territory and the Vanarium outpost, are not that far apart?

Possible?



We're used to seeing the map of the Hyborian Age flattened out, like this:

But, if you consider the curvature of the Earth, Cimmeria is really more like this, isn't it?

If that's the case, then Venarium could be just over the border from Aquilonia and still be fairly close to Conan's village (see it on the second map?) in northwestern Cimmeria.

What do you think?

 

[Spectator]

S4 (what kind a name is that anyway?)

It's been a year or so since I last read JMR's Valorous, but for some reason, I was under the impression that Conan meets his clansmen only several days after leaving the border kingdoms. Am I correct?

If so wouldn't that place JMR's location of the clan, kinda south?

Although the fact that border Kingdom shaped like a hot dog and is on a north/south axis, kind allows Conan to enter at the northern end, I suppose.

Ahh heck.

 

[Supplement Four]

I not sure S4, if Aquilonia was going to invade a country, like Cimmeria, full of lochs, hills and mountains, covered in dense forests, it would not march an Army so far north...

Yes, even in Turtledove's Venarium, it can't be that far over the border that Venarium sat, for the very same reasons you cite.

I'm just throwing stuff at the wall, trying to see what will stick.

Compared to the defences they put up along Thunder River, which look sensible, Venarium looks a joke!

In Turtledove's book, there were other forts. The army would invade a bit, then build a fort. Go a little further, then build another fort.

Venarium was the one farthest into Cimmeria, and it's the one that grew into a frontier town.

The army led the way and cleaned the area of most of the "savages", while the settelers followed not too far behind. This went on for about 3 years until the Cimmerians decended upon Venarium and decimated it.

When Venarium fell, the other forts were destroyed likewise or abandoned by troops retreating in the face for the Cimmerian onslaught.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4 (what kind a name is that anyway?)

I created it for the Citizens of the Imperium forum. Supplement 4 is a Traveller game supplement, called Citizens of the Imperium. It's a book that added new careers to Classic Traveller.

I took the name as a play on words, myself being a "citizen of the Imperium" as a forum member.

You've got think about it. Not even Traveller people get it all the time.

It's been a year or so since I last read JMR's Valorous, but for some reason, I was under the impression that Conan meets his clansmen only several days after leaving the border kingdoms. Am I correct?

It's kind of vague. The text reads that Conan left his horse with a homesteader three days before he meets up with his kinsmen, but there is no indication of how long he was on the horse after he left the Border Kingdom.

So, Conan's clan could be, really, anywhere on the Cimmerian map. I'm assuming that it's "northwest" somewhere.

But, maybe it is south as his clan does graze their cattle where Venarium once stood.

On this map, the "C" that begins the word "Cimmeria" would mark about where Conan's clan is supposed to be, according to what is written in the Cimmeria sourcebook. That would be the northern edge of the The Broken Leg Lands. So, I guess you can consider that northwestern Cimmeria.

When the headman speaks, he talks of sending out the bloody spear so that all the clans will be summoned to the standing stone in the Field of Chiefs.

Now, maybe they're so high up that they can see a long way, but this passage makes it seem like they can, indeed, see the standing stone from where they are:

"Tomorrow," Canach went on, "We will send out the Bloody Spears to summon the fighting men of all the clans to the Standing Stone in the Field of Chiefs." He pointed to the half-disk of the moon, perched on the shoulder of the mountain to the east.

He gives the clans a month or less to get there (depending on how soon the "moon will shine full" again).

Given that description, I'd say the Standing Stone can be seen for many miles, but, looking at the map below, we're talking about maybe 200 miles as the crow flies. Is it reasonable to think that the Standing Stone can be seen for 200 miles? How far is the horizon in that hilly place, anyway? I'd say it's impossible to see the standing stone that far off.

So, if the clan can see the Standing Stone, then they're farther north and east (still in northwestern Cimmeria) than where the "C" stands on the map.

Yet, when Conan meets up with his kinsmen, they are grazing where Venarium once stood--and that's about 250 miles south, as the crow flies, of where the Cimmeria book puts Conan's clan.

Of course, the Conach are supposed to be semi-nomadic, so maybe they roam over quite a distance. Winter is coming, so the clan would be further south when Conan encounters them, and in Valorous, it is said that the clan has not wintered at this particular place in a decade.

Given Conan's age at the time of this story, that would mean that they haven't wintered here since Venarium fell.

Could it be that Conan's clan, being semi-nomadic and not stopping in a place in 10 years, could roam the entire western border of Cimmeria?

 

[Supplement Four]

Looking at the game rules, Conan, on his horse, can travel about 24 miles a day in this terrain. That may be a little slow "as the crow flies", but it's a good number to use considering Conan's path around mountains and such probably added much to his total distance.

We know he passed over from the Border Kingdom into Cimmera at Atzel's Pass, which is on the map northeast of Ymir Pass. From there, he rode for an unknown number of days until he found a homesteader just south of his Clan's lands, and it was a 3 day walk (would be about 36 miles) to meet up with his clansmen were Venarium once stood.

From there, it was about three days--certainly less than a week--to the scene where Canach points to the Standing Stone. On foot, in this territory, 12 miles a day is about the fastest they can move. So, from Venarium, Conan moved anywhere from 36-84 miles to get to the scene with Canach.

Judging where Venarium is located and where the Field of Chiefs lies, there's no way Conan can travel as described by Roberts.

 

[Spectator]

Good analysis on the horse bound travel, but I'm giving the hillbred Cimmerian 24miles/day while walking. Based on his upbringing and knowledge of the terrain, his stamina (JMR talks about his "mile-eating pace" several times), a little extra oomph, just cause he is conan.
3 miles an hour is normal walking speed on a flat surface, and I think Conan should be able to walk in his homeland like we walk on a flat surface.
Just my 2 cents.

Looking at the game rules, Conan, on his horse, can travel about 24 miles a day in this terrain. That may be a little slow "as the crow flies", but it's a good number to use considering Conan's path around mountains and such probably added much to his total distance.

We know he passed over from the Border Kingdom into Cimmera at Atzel's Pass, which is on the map northeast of Ymir Pass. From there, he rode for an unknown number of days until he found a homesteader just south of his Clan's lands, and it was a 3 day walk (would be about 36 miles) to meet up with his clansmen were Venarium once stood.

From there, it was about three days--certainly less than a week--to the scene where Canach points to the Standing Stone. On foot, in this territory, 12 miles a day is about the fastest they can move. So, from Venarium, Conan moved anywhere from 36-84 miles to get to the scene with Canach.

Judging where Venarium is located and where the Field of Chiefs lies, there's no way Conan can travel as described by Roberts.

 

[Supplement Four]

Good analysis on the horse bound travel, but I'm giving the hillbred Cimmerian 24miles/day while walking.

I cut it in half not because of endurance but because its easier to go around a mountain than over it. I figure the land doesn't allow for a lot of straight, as-the-crow-flies, travel.