The Virus

[swordtart]

Right, it can remain powered, but if you keep shooting the already depowered ship each round, it cannot. You should have plenty of time to board and disable power generation. None of the ship can function without power. No power, no danger from the Virus. For example, an Anti-Viral ship with Ion Weapons doing an average of 3,500 points of power drain each round. That is almost enough to guarantee completely depowering the Destroyer on pg 227 of HG.

What threat is the Virus if what it is connected to has no power?

HG 2022 p30 gives:
"Hardened Systems: If a system is listed as being hardened (as with /fib computers, for example), the crew may choose to allocate any Power to
it before any deductions for Ion weapons are applied. This ensures a hardened system will always have enough Power to function, provided that the Power was available before the Ion attack."

So my reading is that ION weapons cannot shut down the ships computer if VIRUS has hardened it as the power is ring fenced. Any hardened systems would also continue to function normally. You would need to destroy the power generating capability rather than just continually drain it each turn.

There is also the emergency power system option that allows 5 rounds of function after the power system is knocked out. That would logically be on separate circuits and could itself be hardened allowing Virus 5 rounds after you destroy the power generators. High Efficiency batteries could also be hardened and provide an additional independent power supply. If there was a single robot or probe aboard it would be certainly be infected and Ion weapons fired at the ship would not affect it. Infected robots, hand computers, augmented humans or even portable lighting can carry the eggs and are a transmission vector. If the ship were threatened it might launch all drones and robots in life pods to try to preserve its existence. Tracking and destroying them all might not be practical so VIRUS would live on.

A vault could protect hardened components until even after the complete destruction of the ship. If the hardened computer and some hardened back-up batteries were placed in a vault they would also survive and be able to operate beyond the total destruction of the ship.

How are you boarding. If it is by assault ship then you are bringing power and computers to VIRUS. If you are space walking then you are bringing Vacc Suits that also require power and likely some electronics. VIRUS would probably lie low. You would "vanquish" it and then it would infest your ship when you returned to it in jubilant celebration. maybe not that same day, but one day you would get the glitchy screen and realise you had just added another vampire to the fleet.

When faced with an infected ship or facility, nuke it from orbit... it's the only way to be sure

 

[MasterGwydion]

If ion weapons are such a threat then every vessel will have its own ion screen.

I made some variant rules for Ion Weapons as Ion Weapons should have some better defenses than they do currently. I just use Radiation Shielding and then count the armor of the ship towards reducing the Ion Damage as well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

HG 2022 p30 gives:
"Hardened Systems: If a system is listed as being hardened (as with /fib computers, for example), the crew may choose to allocate any Power to
it before any deductions for Ion weapons are applied. This ensures a hardened system will always have enough Power to function, provided that the Power was available before the Ion attack."

Can you harden a power plant? You do not allocate any power to the power plant, therefore how can you harden the power plant? The rule says that you can allocate any power to the system before the deductions from Ion weapons happen. Do Ion Weapons just not effect power plants? Also, if you were hit with Ion Weapons on the previous turn and lose more than your total power points generated in a round and you fire after the enemy ship, those power points to do replenish until after the enemy ship's next turn. So where does the ship get the power points to allocate after this turn's Ion Weapon attack? It didn't have any left over from last turn and it doesn't get new power points until after their turn is complete.

Look at that last line after the comma. "Provided that the Power was available before the Ion attack." If their power doesn't return until after their actions, they can't allocate anything. Power can fail to return in two ways due to Ion Weapons. One, Effect 6+ lasts D3 rounds. This would mean no Power available to allocate to your hardened systems. Two, Attack the enemy after their action and reduce their Power to 0. They will use their power on the first turn as you haven't attacked them yet, but on the second turn, because their Power will not return until after the enemy ship's actions, they have no power to allocate.

So my reading is that ION weapons cannot shut down the ships computer if VIRUS has hardened it as the power is ring fenced. Any hardened systems would also continue to function normally. You would need to destroy the power generating capability rather than just continually drain it each turn.

Keep draining it each turn until you can disconnect the power source. A Vacc Suit doesn't require electronics, nor do hand tools and therefore cannot be infected (as far as I am aware). A ship with no power that can't maneuver is pretty easy to just keep shooting.

There is also the emergency power system option that allows 5 rounds of function after the power system is knocked out. That would logically be on separate circuits and could itself be hardened allowing Virus 5 rounds after you destroy the power generators. High Efficiency batteries could also be hardened and provide an additional independent power supply. If there was a single robot or probe aboard it would be certainly be infected and Ion weapons fired at the ship would not affect it. Infected robots, hand computers, augmented humans or even portable lighting can carry the eggs and are a transmission vector. If the ship were threatened it might launch all drones and robots in life pods to try to preserve its existence. Tracking and destroying them all might not be practical so VIRUS would live on.

This was a good idea until I went and read the rules for the Emergency Power System.

EMERGENCY POWER SYSTEM An emergency power system allows a ship to keep functioning even when its main power plant has been taken completely offline and is a cheaper alternative than a second backup power plant. If the main power plant sustains a critical hit of Severity 3 or greater, the emergency power system automatically activates and allows the ship to function normally for five rounds with 90% of its normal Power. If the power plant sustains a critical hit of Severity 6, the emergency power is taken offline as well.

A vault could protect hardened components until even after the complete destruction of the ship. If the hardened computer and some hardened back-up batteries were placed in a vault they would also survive and be able to operate beyond the total destruction of the ship.

Components in a Vault would be the same as components not in a vault. Vaults are no protection versus Ion Weapons, so the hardened systems would still have the same problems as those above.

How are you boarding. If it is by assault ship then you are bringing power and computers to VIRUS. If you are space walking then you are bringing Vacc Suits that also require power and likely some electronics. VIRUS would probably lie low. You would "vanquish" it and then it would infest your ship when you returned to it in jubilant celebration. maybe not that same day, but one day you would get the glitchy screen and realise you had just added another vampire to the fleet.

Canaries are a thing to make sure that you do not bring back the Virus, but basically, just permanently fry the electronics (this is how they dealt with the Virus in Virus on Virus fights) then throw them in a deconstructor and call it done. The corpse is chewed up after the Virus is killed and you have new raw materials to use in your Fabricator.

When faced with an infected ship or facility, nuke it from orbit... it's the only way to be sure

This is one way to do it, but nuke-proof bunkers are a thing. You have a good point though, Radiation Weapons also work on Robots and electronics in ways different from how they work on biological lifeforms.

 

[swordtart]

Can you harden a power plant? You do not allocate any power to the power plant, therefore how can you harden the power plant?

Not the plant, but the computer, Batteries also have power allocated to them so they can be hardened.

The rule says that you can allocate any power to the system before the deductions from Ion weapons happen. Do Ion Weapons just not effect power plants?

Ion weapons do not do damage to any components. Unlike real EMP weapons, they do not damage circuits etc, they only drain power (by mechanisms too magical to go into). Hardened systems are immune to the effects of ION weapons. That means the power they use is never drained (as immunity to ION weapons is meaningless otherwise).

Also, if you were hit with Ion Weapons on the previous turn and lose more than your total power points generated in a round and you fire after the enemy ship, those power points to do replenish until after the enemy ship's next turn. So where does the ship get the power points to allocate after this turn's Ion Weapon attack? It didn't have any left over from last turn and it doesn't get new power points until after their turn is complete.

Batteries can hold power to be released as required. This could be even after an Ion weapon has drained all power from the power plant. Ion weapons can only drain the power available at the time the weapon fired, not any subsequently generated. A hardened system connected to a hardened battery can operate for as long as the battery power lasts regardless of how much power from the plant is drained.

View attachment 6538
Look at that last line after the comma. "Provided that the Power was available before the Ion attack."

Look at the bit before the comma "This ensures a hardened system will ALWAYS have enough power to function".

If their power doesn't return until after their actions, they can't allocate anything.

I am not sure that power allocation is an action limited to the Action step of combat. M-Drives need power to manoeuvre and that happens before the Action Step, Weapons need power allocated and shooting happens before the Action step. The alternative interpretation makes hardening useless and it is specifically called out in Ion weapons keyword that they are unaffected by Ion weapons.

Engineers can also overload power plants or take hardened systems offline after the drain to get a bit more power that can then be diverted to other hardened systems before the ion weapons can fire next round.

Power can fail to return in two ways due to Ion Weapons. One, Effect 6+ lasts D3 rounds.

That is a way that no power would be available in a specific round of combat. No argument there. It is more difficult to achieve (and if you roll 1 there is still no effect).

This would mean no Power available to allocate to your hardened systems. Two, Attack the enemy after their action and reduce their Power to 0. They will use their power on the first turn as you haven't attacked them yet, but on the second turn, because their Power will not return until after the enemy ship's actions, they have no power to allocate.

Hardened batteries still have power to allocate.

Keep draining it each turn until you can disconnect the power source.

That is possible but you still cannot drain Hardened systems.

A Vacc Suit doesn't require electronics, nor do hand tools and therefore cannot be infected (as far as I am aware). A ship with no power that can't maneuver is pretty easy to just keep shooting.

So what are you bringing to destroy the ship? If you are going to board only armed with slug guns, cutlasses and only unpowered Vacc Suits then ships defences that are hardened or are independent of ships power will be difficult to defeat. Even opening a valve without a power assisted valve cracker will be a challenge. Not impossible, but very much less attractive to a boarding party. Any robots, drones or subverted organics aboard will still be fully functional and would probably be able to stop you in your tracks, since they can use advanced weaponry and armour with impunity.

This was a good idea until I went and read the rules for the Emergency Power System.

EMERGENCY POWER SYSTEM An emergency power system allows a ship to keep functioning even when its main power plant has been taken completely offline and is a cheaper alternative than a second backup power plant. If the main power plant sustains a critical hit of Severity 3 or greater, the emergency power system automatically activates and allows the ship to function normally for five rounds with 90% of its normal Power. If the power plant sustains a critical hit of Severity 6, the emergency power is taken offline as well.

Ion weapons do not damage anything, so never get any critical against power plants. This was more protection vs conventional damage vs. the power plant once you had actually boarded.

Components in a Vault would be the same as components not in a vault. Vaults are no protection versus Ion Weapons, so the hardened systems would still have the same problems as those above.

Again this is physical protection. Ion weapons do not drain power from every item on a ship, only things powered by the ships power systems. If the systems inside the vault are not using the ships power systems (i.e. they are running off independent batteries) they cannot be affected by Ion weapons.

Canaries are a thing to make sure that you do not bring back the Virus, but basically, just permanently fry the electronics (this is how they dealt with the Virus in Virus on Virus fights) then throw them in a deconstructor and call it done. The corpse is chewed up after the Virus is killed and you have new raw materials to use in your Fabricator.

And infection from small craft is also a thing. Are canaries 100% effective against all forms of VIRUS? Even the dormant forms (I haven't looked that deeply into that aspect to be fair. VIRUS was not intended to be a extant threat, only the reason the setting existed. Crowbarring into another setting is always going to give rise to inconsistencies.

This is one way to do it, but nuke-proof bunkers are a thing. You have a good point though, Radiation Weapons also work on Robots and electronics in ways different from how they work on biological lifeforms.

EMP weapons actually do damage to Robots (but they are still protected if hardened) so could actually remove hit from virus infested electronic systems and kill any subverted organics as well.

You can certainly find reasons to make destroying a VIRUS ship a cake walk if you want, but you can also find plenty of reasons why it wouldn't be as well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not the plant, but the computer, Batteries also have power allocated to them so they can be hardened.

Ion weapons do not do damage to any components. Unlike real EMP weapons, they do not damage circuits etc, they only drain power (by mechanisms too magical to go into). Hardened systems are immune to the effects of ION weapons. That means the power they use is never drained (as immunity to ION weapons is meaningless otherwise).

Then it is meaningless as written, since on the 2nd round of combat, if you have no power to put into the Hardened system, then it has no power. This is straight RAW.

Batteries can hold power to be released as required. This could be even after an Ion weapon has drained all power from the power plant. Ion weapons can only drain the power available at the time the weapon fired, not any subsequently generated. A hardened system connected to a hardened battery can operate for as long as the battery power lasts regardless of how much power from the plant is drained.

I see nowhere that says batteries are not drained as well and since you can't Harden a power system and batteries are a type of power system, I doubt the rules exist for you to Harden a battery.

Look at the bit before the comma "This ensures a hardened system will ALWAYS have enough power to function".

Right, the bit after the comma is where it describes the exception to the bit before the comma. A Hardened System will always have enough power to function, provided that the power was available before the Ion Attack.

I am not sure that power allocation is an action limited to the Action step of combat. M-Drives need power to manoeuvre and that happens before the Action Step, Weapons need power allocated and shooting happens before the Action step. The alternative interpretation makes hardening useless and it is specifically called out in Ion weapons keyword that they are unaffected by Ion weapons.

This would seem to disagree with you. The enemy ship's power is reduced until after the ship has finished its next set of actions.

Engineers can also overload power plants or take hardened systems offline after the drain to get a bit more power that can then be diverted to other hardened systems before the ion weapons can fire next round.

That is a way that no power would be available in a specific round of combat. No argument there. It is more difficult to achieve (and if you roll 1 there is still no effect).

Hardened batteries still have power to allocate.

That is possible but you still cannot drain Hardened systems.

You are not draining a Hardened System, you are draining the power before it can get to the Hardened System on the 2nd turn.

So what are you bringing to destroy the ship? If you are going to board only armed with slug guns, cutlasses and only unpowered Vacc Suits then ships defences that are hardened or are independent of ships power will be difficult to defeat. Even opening a valve without a power assisted valve cracker will be a challenge. Not impossible, but very much less attractive to a boarding party. Any robots, drones or subverted organics aboard will still be fully functional and would probably be able to stop you in your tracks, since they can use advanced weaponry and armour with impunity.

Pneumatic metal saws and pneumatic iris openers, etc. EMP or stun grenades for the robots/subverted organics.

Ion weapons do not damage anything, so never get any critical against power plants. This was more protection vs conventional damage vs. the power plant once you had actually boarded.

Again this is physical protection. Ion weapons do not drain power from every item on a ship, only things powered by the ships power systems. If the systems inside the vault are not using the ships power systems (i.e. they are running off independent batteries) they cannot be affected by Ion weapons.

Where does it say that things inside a vault are protected from Ion Weapons? Where does it say that batteries are not drained by Ion Weapons? If you could point me to that, it would be helpful.

And infection from small craft is also a thing. Are canaries 100% effective against all forms of VIRUS? Even the dormant forms (I haven't looked that deeply into that aspect to be fair. VIRUS was not intended to be a extant threat, only the reason the setting existed. Crowbarring into another setting is always going to give rise to inconsistencies.

They seem to be, but I could have missed something, somewhere.

EMP weapons actually do damage to Robots (but they are still protected if hardened) so could actually remove hit from virus infested electronic systems and kill any subverted organics as well.

You can certainly find reasons to make destroying a VIRUS ship a cake walk if you want, but you can also find plenty of reasons why it wouldn't be as well.

I am just trying to figure out what the rules allow. Once I figure that out, perhaps I can figure out how some groups overcame the Virus in their areas of space.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Can you harden a power plant? You do not allocate any power to the power plant, therefore how can you harden the power plant?

Harden the hull (basic power is allocated for the hull) and everything inside is hardened.

 

[swordtart]

Then it is meaningless as written, since on the 2nd round of combat, if you have no power to put into the Hardened system, then it has no power. This is straight RAW.

Perhaps Ion weapons are poorly written then.

I see nowhere that says batteries are not drained as well and since you can't Harden a power system and batteries are a type of power system, I doubt the rules exist for you to Harden a battery.

The absence of a negation is not an affirmation.
"Any system that draws power from the power plant can be Hardened to render it immune to Ion weapons."
Nowhere does it say you cannot harden a power system. You might infer that as you can only harden power drawing systems (and a power plant doesn't draw power) but a battery draws power when it is being charged and therefore is within the only definition of systems that can be hardened.

Right, the bit after the comma is where it describes the exception to the bit before the comma. A Hardened System will always have enough power to function, provided that the power was available before the Ion Attack.

So since you assert that power cannot be restored before the next attack phase, how do you propose that Hardened systems exercise their immunity to Ion weapons.

View attachment 6539
This would seem to disagree with you. The enemy ship's power is reduced until after the ship has finished its next set of actions.

The reduction in power, not the ability of crews to allocate power that might exist from other sources.

You are not draining a Hardened System, you are draining the power before it can get to the Hardened System on the 2nd turn.

Then Hardening does nothing and has no immunity.

Pneumatic metal saws and pneumatic iris openers, etc. EMP or stun grenades for the robots/subverted organics.

EMP using what to generate it, without electrical power sources you are limited to nuclear explosions. Concussive stun grenades would be fine, but these won't affect robots.

Where does it say that things inside a vault are protected from Ion Weapons? Where does it say that batteries are not drained by Ion Weapons? If you could point me to that, it would be helpful.

Where does it say they are not.

Ion weapons drown power from the ships current power reserve. They do not suck power out of power storage devices. They do not suck power from things not powered directly from the current power reserve.

They seem to be, but I could have missed something, somewhere.

I am just trying to figure out what the rules allow. Once I figure that out, perhaps I can figure out how some groups overcame the Virus in their areas of space.

They didn't use the MGT2 rules for a start

 

[MasterGwydion]

Perhaps Ion weapons are poorly written then.

Agreed.

The absence of a negation is not an affirmation.
"Any system that draws power from the power plant can be Hardened to render it immune to Ion weapons."
Nowhere does it say you cannot harden a power system. You might infer that as you can only harden power drawing systems (and a power plant doesn't draw power) but a battery draws power when it is being charged and therefore is within the only definition of systems that can be hardened.

That is a good point on batteries drawing power from a power system and are therefore able to be hardened. I agree.

So since you assert that power cannot be restored before the next attack phase, how do you propose that Hardened systems exercise their immunity to Ion weapons.

Basically Hardening is only good in the first round of combat against an enemy that can remove your entire power stores in one round. Normal enemies (ships as designed and published) cannot do this and therefore there will always be power left over from the previous levels to make the Hardened equipment unaffected by the Ion Weapon. So, it only really works on a ship designed entirely around Ion weapons and missiles.

The reduction in power, not the ability of crews to allocate power that might exist from other sources.

There has to be power in other sources in order for the crew to allocate it. Batteries count as a power system. So, could likely be drained as well.

Then Hardening does nothing and has no immunity.

In this edge case, that is correct.

EMP using what to generate it, without electrical power sources you are limited to nuclear explosions. Concussive stun grenades would be fine, but these won't affect robots.

Single-use EMP grenade. Who cares if it is infected afterwards? Fry the circuits and then throw it in the Deconstruction module and fabricate a new grenade.

Where does it say they are not.

Assigning protections where none are stated? I am confused about how that works.

Ion weapons drown power from the ships current power reserve.

This is paraphrasing. This is what it actually says.

Batteries are a power system.

Can be used as if produced by the power plant.

They do not suck power out of power storage devices. They do not suck power from things not powered directly from the current power reserve.

This is your interpretation. It is not actually what the rules say.

They didn't use the MGT2 rules for a start

lolz. Fact!

 

[swordtart]

Agreed.

That is a good point on batteries drawing power from a power system and are therefore able to be hardened. I agree.

Basically Hardening is only good in the first round of combat against an enemy that can remove your entire power stores in one round. Normal enemies (ships as designed and published) cannot do this and therefore there will always be power left over from the previous levels to make the Hardened equipment unaffected by the Ion Weapon. So, it only really works on a ship designed entirely around Ion weapons and missiles.
There has to be power in other sources in order for the crew to allocate it. Batteries count as a power system. So, could likely be drained as well.

That is an assertion not RAW. Batteries are explicitly storage and only release their power on demand through the ships power systems. Hardened batteries (which was my use case) absolutely cannot be drained (as by definition they have all the power they are storing already allocated to them).

In this edge case, that is correct.
Single-use EMP grenade. Who cares if it is infected afterwards? Fry the circuits and then throw it in the Deconstruction module and fabricate a new grenade.

Ok all equipment in the disintegrator (presuming that does not get infected in the process)

Assigning protections where none are stated? I am confused about how that works.

Exactly the same way as assigning vulnerabilities where none are stated

This is paraphrasing. This is what it actually says.
View attachment 6544
Batteries are a power system.

Agreed batteries are not drained. At the point of attack unhardened ones would be disrupted, but not drained. Hardened ones of course do not suffer any effect.

View attachment 6545
Can be used as if produced by the power plant.

Yes but are added to the power the ship has available that round. Which is zero because of Ion weapon in the Attack phase. In the action phase I can transfer power from a system that has it (the battery) to a hardened system that doesn't (e.g. the M-Drive). Come next movement phase I can move before the Attack phase when I loose any surplus power. Rise and repeat.

This is your interpretation. It is not actually what the rules say.

RAW doesn't actually say. We are both interpreting from the little it does say. Ion weapons are clearly an afterthought. The effect is that they remove power points from the total that your ship produces every round.

I chose to interpret that systems designed to protect against power failures can actually do that usefully and I absolutely reject the notion that Ion weapons depletes power storage. I affirm that such storage can be tapped at need (within the action phase by crew actions clearly defined in that phase if nothing else).

You may chose to interpret otherwise.

Lolz. Fact!

 

[MasterGwydion]

That is an assertion not RAW. Batteries are explicitly storage and only release their power on demand through the ships power systems. Hardened batteries (which was my use case) absolutely cannot be drained (as by definition they have all the power they are storing already allocated to them).

Show me where it says that batteries are not a power system. They are located in the power section of the rules. They are clearly listed as options that can be applied to a ship's power systems. They are not some separate thing.

For an unrelated real-world example, are the batteries in an electric car the power system or not? Are the batteries in a diesel sub a power system? Calling the batteries, not a power system seems counter-intuitive.

Ok all equipment in the disintegrator (presuming that does not get infected in the process)

I said fry the circuits first. This kills the virus, according to So, why would this infect it? The Virus apparently can't survive in fried circuits, not sure why not though.

Exactly the same way as assigning vulnerabilities where none are stated

Exactly where did I do this?

Agreed batteries are not drained. At the point of attack unhardened ones would be disrupted, but not drained. Hardened ones of course do not suffer any effect.

Yes but are added to the power the ship has available that round. Which is zero because of Ion weapon in the Attack phase. In the action phase I can transfer power from a system that has it (the battery) to a hardened system that doesn't (e.g. the M-Drive). Come next movement phase I can move before the Attack phase when I loose any surplus power. Rise and repeat.

No. You don't get your power back before you act, you get them after.

So where are you getting the power from to refill your hardened batteries?

RAW doesn't actually say. We are both interpreting from the little it does say. Ion weapons are clearly an afterthought. The effect is that they remove power points from the total that your ship produces every round.

I chose to interpret that systems designed to protect against power failures can actually do that usefully and I absolutely reject the notion that Ion weapons depletes power storage. I affirm that such storage can be tapped at need (within the action phase by crew actions clearly defined in that phase if nothing else).

As written, they only do that if you cannot have all of the power on the ship taken every round by Ion Weapon fire. If you can do more damage than the other guy has power available, then Hardening does nothing. The whole system was overpowered by the sheer magnitude of the Ion disruptions. It is like designing a system to protect you from hand grenades and then saying that it should work against nukes too, because they are just big grenades. Or like saying that having a grenade sump in your foxhole is stupid because it won't stop mortar rounds, even if hit exactly in the grenade dump.

Hardened does what it was designed to do. You pick any two ships that have Ion Weapons out of the books that are roughly the same size and class, and the Hardened thing works fine. Where it ceases to work is where you have a ship entirely made up of Ion Weapons and maybe some kind of missile launcher and nothing else. This overwhelms what the Hardening was designed to do. They could have just said that Hardening make you immune to Ion Weapons, but they didn't. They specifically gave it a mechanic. Using that mechanic, there is a vulnerability against ships with all Ion Weapons. I would say that the rules should be changed to "Hardened = Immune to Ion Weapons" Then it does actually work exactly how you say it does.

You may chose to interpret otherwise.

 

[rinku]

They are honestly not that much of a threat to naval vessels. Commercial ships generally don't pay for hardened gear, but honestly, would probably rather be shot at by a weapon that *might* reduce their power a bit than one that can cause damage.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They are honestly not that much of a threat to naval vessels. Commercial ships generally don't pay for hardened gear, but honestly, would probably rather be shot at by a weapon that *might* reduce their power a bit than one that can cause damage.

A lot cheaper to repair after being pirated.

 

[swordtart]

Show me where it says that batteries are not a power system. They are located in the power section of the rules. They are clearly listed as options that can be applied to a ship's power systems. They are not some separate thing.

Where did I say that batteries were not a power system? Where they appear in the rules is irrelevant.

So, weapons do not appear in the Power section of the rules, so they are not power systems and as Ion weapons only disrupt power systems all weapons are immune to Ion weapons - This is clearly nonsense.

Power systems is not a section of the equipment rules it is the method of routing power to where it is needed that is why the game mechanic is reducing the power available to represent the temporary damage as circuit breakers trip etc.

Ion weapons do not actually drain power from systems, that is just how it is represented in the game. It just gets shunted to non-useful places reducing the power available to ships systems. It does not drain storage, but if stored power is being used to power a ships system when the ion weapon strikes then that power can also be reduced as part of the ion weapon "damage". Any that is not presently being routed to a ships system is unaffected.

After the Ion weapon hits, crew actions can reallocate stored power to ships systems in exactly the same way they could with any other source of power. The power plant cannot generate more power without an overload action by an engineer, but the battery can just use its power to supplement.

View attachment 6546
For an unrelated real-world example, are the batteries in an electric car the power system or not? Are the batteries in a diesel sub a power system? Calling the batteries, not a power system seems counter-intuitive.

Again this is not an argument I remember making, I simply said batteries are storage devices. All the power that they may have stored prior to the Ion weapon hit is available for use. The power plant cannot regenerate its normal power output until the next action phase after the hit.

I said fry the circuits first. This kills the virus, according to So, why would this infect it? The Virus apparently can't survive in fried circuits, not sure why not though.
View attachment 6547

How are you frying the circuits, frying normally implies electrically? You could certainly use non-electrical heat to burn them without risk, but any electrical device is potentially vulnerable.

Exactly where did I do this?

By claiming that batteries must be drained by Ion weapons.

No. You don't get your power back before you act, you get them after.

You are not getting it back, you never lost it in the first place. Ion weapons do not drain batteries.

View attachment 6548

This is a good example of bad wording. Surely the target always completes its next set of actions in the current round as the Action phase is after the Attack phase.

So where are you getting the power from to refill your hardened batteries?

If you depleted all the power that the plant was capable of generating then you cannot refill the batteries. But I didn't say they were being refilled. They retain any power that you do not use indefinitely. Once you have used all the power storage then it's gone. But until then it is available for use anytime you choose to use it.

As written, they only do that if you cannot have all of the power on the ship taken every round by Ion Weapon fire. If you can do more damage than the other guy has power available, then Hardening does nothing. The whole system was overpowered by the sheer magnitude of the Ion disruptions. It is like designing a system to protect you from hand grenades and then saying that it should work against nukes too, because they are just big grenades. Or like saying that having a grenade sump in your foxhole is stupid because it won't stop mortar rounds, even if hit exactly in the grenade dump.

That wasn't my argument. Lets see if we can simplify this.

1) Before the first Ion weapon hits all systems operate normally.
2) After the first hit by an Ion weapon
a) Any Hardened systems are fully operational (presuming enough power was allocated).
b) Take any power required for hardened systems off your power pool before reducing the pool for any Ion weapon damage.
c) Any non-hardened systems can be operated provided sufficient power remains. If it has all been depleted by the Ion weapon then none can operate. If there is partial power then the crew decide which systems get the power and route it accordingly.
3) In the action phase immediately following the Ion attack crew can take actions to reroute any power that might remain to other systems. Only power that was allocated to hardened systems will remain if the power was completely depleted by the Ion weapon attack. This includes any hardened batteries. the only other way to obtain power would be to overload the plant.
4) In the next round, the target having completed its next set of Actions after the attack, the power plant regenerates all power (unless the ion weapon got an effect 6+ in which case the power is knocked out for 1D3 rounds). If no power is regenerated any system in this round will need to be powered by power scavenged from hardened systems (including hardened batteries). Otherwise it is just like any other round.

I think that is the way it plays out.

Hardened does what it was designed to do. You pick any two ships that have Ion Weapons out of the books that are roughly the same size and class, and the Hardened thing works fine. Where it ceases to work is where you have a ship entirely made up of Ion Weapons and maybe some kind of missile launcher and nothing else. This overwhelms what the Hardening was designed to do. They could have just said that Hardening make you immune to Ion Weapons, but they didn't. They specifically gave it a mechanic. Using that mechanic, there is a vulnerability against ships with all Ion Weapons. I would say that the rules should be changed to "Hardened = Immune to Ion Weapons"

It already says that.
"Hardened Systems (/fib): A computer and its connections can be Hardened against attack by electromagnetic pulse weapons. A hardened computer is immune to Ion weapons but costs +50% more." HG2022 p20

Then it does actually work exactly how you say it does.

Agreed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Where did I say that batteries were not a power system? Where they appear in the rules is irrelevant.

So, weapons do not appear in the Power section of the rules, so they are not power systems and as Ion weapons only disrupt power systems all weapons are immune to Ion weapons - This is clearly nonsense.

Ion weapons do not actually drain power from systems, that is just how it is represented in the game. It just gets shunted to non-useful places reducing the power available to ships systems. It does not drain storage, but if stored power is being used to power a ships system when the ion weapon strikes then that power can also be reduced as part of the ion weapon "damage". Any that is not presently being routed to a ships system is unaffected.

After the Ion weapon hits, crew actions can reallocate stored power to ships systems in exactly the same way they could with any other source of power. The power plant cannot generate more power without an overload action by an engineer, but the battery can just use its power to supplement.

Again this is not an argument I remember making, I simply said batteries are storage devices. All the power that they may have stored prior to the Ion weapon hit is available for use. The power plant cannot regenerate its normal power output until the next action phase after the hit.

How are you frying the circuits, frying normally implies electrically? You could certainly use non-electrical heat to burn them without risk, but any electrical device is potentially vulnerable.

By claiming that batteries must be drained by Ion weapons.

Batteries are a power system. Power is deducted from the power system. So, all of the power that you can't use because of an Ion Weapon, where does it go since you claim it isn't lost?

You are not getting it back, you never lost it in the first place. Ion weapons do not drain batteries.

This is a good example of bad wording. Surely the target always completes its next set of actions in the current round as the Action phase is after the Attack phase.

If you depleted all the power that the plant was capable of generating then you cannot refill the batteries. But I didn't say they were being refilled. They retain any power that you do not use indefinitely. Once you have used all the power storage then it's gone. But until then it is available for use anytime you choose to use it.

That wasn't my argument. Lets see if we can simplify this.

1) Before the first Ion weapon hits all systems operate normally.
2) After the first hit by an Ion weapon
a) Any Hardened systems are fully operational (presuming enough power was allocated).
b) Take any power required for hardened systems off your power pool before reducing the pool for any Ion weapon damage.
c) Any non-hardened systems can be operated provided sufficient power remains. If it has all been depleted by the Ion weapon then none can operate. If there is partial power then the crew decide which systems get the power and route it accordingly.
3) In the action phase immediately following the Ion attack crew can take actions to reroute any power that might remain to other systems. Only power that was allocated to hardened systems will remain if the power was completely depleted by the Ion weapon attack. This includes any hardened batteries. the only other way to obtain power would be to overload the plant.

This can't be true. If this was true, why would you ever have a hardened M-drive? Lose all your power on the Attack Step, after they have already moved, then recover all of the power after the Actions Step, giving you full power to the M-Drive on the next turn even if it is not Hardened.

4) In the next round, having completed its next set of Actions after the attack, the power plant regenerates all power (unless the ion weapon got an effect 6+ in which case the power is knocked out for 1D3 rounds). If no power is regenerated any system in this round will need to be powered by power scavenged from hardened systems (including hardened batteries)

I think that is the way it plays out.

It already says that.
"Hardened Systems (/fib): A computer and its connections can be Hardened against attack by electromagnetic pulse weapons. A hardened computer is immune to Ion weapons but costs +50% more." HG2022 p20

How can a computer be immune to Ion Weapons if it has no power? Great, the computer is still fine, but has no power. It is just a pile of unpowered parts. Still 100% uneffected, but what happens to a computer that has no power from anywhere? What happens when you don't have enough power to pay for the basic 20% of hull volume in power points? Does the computer no longer function? How do you run programs if the computer is turned off due to lack of a power source?

Agreed.

 

[swordtart]

Batteries are a power system. Power is deducted from the power system.

Power is deducted from the power pool that round. Power stored in the battery does not become part of the pool until you allocate it.

So, all of the power that you can't use because of an Ion Weapon, where does it go since you claim it isn't lost?

I said power that is allocated to hardened systems is not lost to Ion weapons (including hardened batteries). I said power stored in batteries is not lost. I said that power not yet generated by overloading the power plant is not lost. Power removed from the power pool by an Ion weapon is lost (to whatever space magic Ion weapons work by).

This can't be true. If this was true, why would you ever have a hardened M-drive? Lose all your power on the Attack Step, after they have already moved, then recover all of the power after the Actions Step, giving you full power to the M-Drive on the next turn even if it is not Hardened.

This is the way the combat sequence operates and must be true as it is the way the rules for Ion weapons are written. If you get a 6+ then the effects roll over on several rounds and you won't get a reset until then. Then hardened M-Drives would be useful.

Maybe they weren't designed to cripple ships but only to temporarily inhibit their function. Maybe the intent was never to be able to cripple M-drives at all. Maybe it is just supposed to limit the opponents ability to reply or operate power draining shields in the combat phase if the Ion weapon armed ship gains the initiative. Maybe it was just to prevent power being used in the Action phase to conduct repairs etc. Maybe they were not supposed to be used in isolation but as part of a suite of weapons. Maybe they just didn't think it through.

I am not going to speculate on the purpose of the weapons, the game mechanic doesn't match the fluff text so all I can go on is the RAW.

How can a computer be immune to Ion Weapons if it has no power? Great, the computer is still fine, but has no power. It is just a pile of unpowered parts. Still 100% uneffected, but what happens to a computer that has no power from anywhere? What happens when you don't have enough power to pay for the basic 20% of hull volume in power points? Does the computer no longer function? How do you run programs if the computer is turned off due to lack of a power source?

The simple answer is that you are misunderstanding the rules.

Lets use a real world analogy. Lightning hits a power cable. It blows a load of circuit breakers shunting the power surge to earth but also meaning that power from the power station no longer gets to your street and all the lights go out.

The power station is still working and in a few minutes (next round) the circuit breakers will reset restoring power to your home.

Until then you cannot operate anything requiring power. Unless you have a UPS on your computer (hardened). Unless you have equipment that is operating on internal batteries. If have a set of batteries that enable you to operate off grid for a while then you could operate all the unhardened electrical equipment in the house as well, but you probably switch stuff off that isn't essential as it might be able to power everything for long.

 

[swordtart]

They are honestly not that much of a threat to naval vessels. Commercial ships generally don't pay for hardened gear, but honestly, would probably rather be shot at by a weapon that *might* reduce their power a bit than one that can cause damage.

I think the term Ion weapon is implying a lot more capability than there is in these things (the term carries a lot of baggage). Had they been called space lightning it might have generated less expectation. The game effect seems to be that of a simple power surge that overloads systems temporarily. Hardened systems can shrug them off. Maybe some tramp vessels should have a quirk that makes them more susceptible. Power system with less efficient circuit breakers that might get knocked out for longer or need to be manually reset.

Now we have the keyword, they become more interesting as a mechanism for space phenomena.

 

[Condottiere]

An ionic based weapon system appears to have two effects.

It blocks the transmission of power.

It stops components from utilizing power points, which may be the same thing.

For a power generator, for that round, those power points are effectively lost, if they aren't shunted to a power collector.

For a power point battery, I don't think that ion weapon systems can drain it.

Maybe the backlash trips the circuit breakers?

Hardened systems and power grids are insulated.

If it overloads the system, that would imply transmission of power points.

Could be used as a power source, in that event, Frankensteining unpowered spacecraft systems.

 

[swordtart]

I have been struggling with this sentence in the Ion Weapon side bar:

"This reduction in Power lasts until the target completes its next set of actions, in either the current round or the next." HG2022 p30.

I couldn't work out why it might take until the next round to recover power (as opposed to later rounds in the event they got a 6+ effect). I had forgotten this:

"If one ship does manage to surprise another, its opponent will not be able to take any actions in the first round of the combat." CRB p165.

In that case a surprised ship that took a non 6+ effect hit with an Ion Weapon would not be able to recover power until the next round.

With respect to the effect 6+ attack, my read is that any damage done in that round by that weapon will persist each round adding to any damage done in later rounds. Thus if you were lucky you could have up to 3 rounds of damage stacked on a ship at the same time. If you could consistently achieve this you could effectively triple the effect of your Ion weapons.

That would be an interesting day

 

[Condottiere]

There is the possibility of stacking.

Surprise, might be more a flyby next to an asteroid.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have been struggling with this sentence in the Ion Weapon side bar:

"This reduction in Power lasts until the target completes its next set of actions, in either the current round or the next." HG2022 p30.

I couldn't work out why it might take until the next round to recover power (as opposed to later rounds in the event they got a 6+ effect). I had forgotten this:

"If one ship does manage to surprise another, its opponent will not be able to take any actions in the first round of the combat." CRB p165.

In that case a surprised ship that took a non 6+ effect hit with an Ion Weapon would not be able to recover power until the next round.

With respect to the effect 6+ attack, my read is that any damage done in that round by that weapon will persist each round adding to any damage done in later rounds. Thus if you were lucky you could have up to 3 rounds of damage stacked on a ship at the same time. If you could consistently achieve this you could effectively triple the effect of your Ion weapons.

That would be an interesting day

This still means that there is no reason to ever Harden an M-Drive. Even Hardened ships aren't designed to lose 100% of their power. Since you can allocate power to it after the Ion Attack, it will always be powered even if not Hardened. The only except to this would be if the Ion Attack removed 100% of your power every round.