Conan RPG Acheronian Edition

[Edhel]

That means the game breaks somewhere between 6th and 10th level --

Yes, this is the old 3.x flaw and I think these kinds of game design issues belong to another thread. I haven't seen one where these would fit - but I've seen a couple of 'oh mitra how I hate 4E threads'*. In D&D, the depletion of resources is known as 9 o'clock adventure time. You leave your camp at 9:00, and come back 9:05 when your spells are finished.

In Conan it's usually hit points - or maybe even spell points - but in our campaign we don't have long combats so this hasn't usually been an issue.

In 4E design this was fixed with healing surges that represent your stamina and determination. This new resource also adds some interesting mechanical opportunities, like losing surges in bad weather or as using them as power in ritual spells etc. You can use a healing surge to heal 1/4 of your hit points out of combat/encounter. It's basically the same thing people were doing with cure light wounds wands in 3.x between encounters.

Conan rpg doesn't have these wands or a mechanic that'd replace it. The Acheronian edition didn't try to fix this because this is a deeper game design issue - my suggestions just touched the more easily fixed surface of the game.

If I had to think up a band-aid to ease the pain, I'd suggest some kind of second wind mechanic. One suggested in Unearthed Arcana was (iirc) some kind of healing pool that you can use to heal yourself out of combat. The size of the pool is, of course, totally arbitary, eg. half max hp.

Our campaign doesn't use it but our Heal skill heals Heal check minus 15 points of damage once per day. Healing herbs are easily modified to support this kind of mechanic, eg. woundwort gives +5 to Heal checks while giving first aid.



* I don't see 4E as 'durr stupid d&d with no gnomes' but as the latest edition of d20 that has fixed many deep game issues and made the game a lot more fun.

 

[Supplement Four]

But the stories are not filled with instances of opponent killing Conan in a single hit. That's the issue M7 is trying to solve, as far as I understood.

Conan has a good Fortitude Save plus several Fate Points.

That's how you keep PCs alive, too. Balance the award of Fate Points with how dangerous your campaign happens to be.

I think issue is realy a non-issue. The game mechanics, as-is, handle it nicely.

 

[Edhel]

The game mechanics, as-is, handle it nicely.

So you decided not to handle the issue?

The point was not survival but the fact that you drop from the first strike - and after that you have to just sit and wait. I see it as a major flaw and unfun.

Of course it would be even worse if there were no extra lives / fate points but that wasn't the issue.

 

[Majestic7]

The REH Conan stories are filled with instances of Conan killing an opponent with a single hit. My players are at a level where the 2 Barbarian/Soldiers wielding Greatswords (deal 1d10+1d8+Str Mod in 2e) are forcing Massive Damage saves quite often. It's kept combat fast and fluid, and in my opinion in line with combat in REH's Hyborian Age.

Yeah, but I kind of assume the people Conan kills dozen in a ten are mooks. They die that way in the Acheronian Edition too. When Conan encounters a dangerous (read: high-level) foe the combat can take a quite long while. It is not a coin toss on who hits first. In the stories, one good hit is usually enough to bring a man down. However, to achieve that one hit, it takes several parries, dodges and swings. Conan only manages to kill foes with a single blow when he has the advantage of surprise (they are Flatfooted in game terms) or they are very inferior in quality to him (a lot lower level and worse stats, so worse defences). So I think both REH stories and gamistic fun agree on these changes.

 

[Majestic7]

If I had to think up a band-aid to ease the pain, I'd suggest some kind of second wind mechanic. One suggested in Unearthed Arcana was (iirc) some kind of healing pool that you can use to heal yourself out of combat. The size of the pool is, of course, totally arbitary, eg. half max hp.

Meh, I think it would make the game much less dangerous if it was too easy to recover damage. It would as well strengthen sorcery even more if it was not a finite resource. Besides, many spells are practically infinite - Entrance costs 0 PP and Hypnotic Suggestion 1 PP, for example. I think using Hero Point to recover some HP together with the Heal changes is enough. Anything more would make the game atmosphere less grim, which I do not find suitable for Conan. War of attrition through multiple wounds suffered from fighting a lot of mooks is one running theme in many stories and I think it creates interesting situations game-wise. It underlines the benefit for wearing armor, which is nice too.

Yeah, Acheronian Edition is band-aid, but I think it works. It keeps the wound from bleeding and crippling the game. Like I said in a previous post, my prime motivation is laziness. I want a version of Conan d20 that works instead of cracking at the seams since I don't want to 1) buy a new system for Conan, 2) learn an entirely new system and 3) convert all official stuff to that new system. Of course, the fourth option would be to stop running the game completely.

 

[Edhel]

Meh

I didn't say a word about sorcery - I think it's ok as it is since I don't play a sorcerer.

The point wasn't in the accumulation of wounds but in the fact that if you get skewered, the game is no fun since you can't regain hit points in any way. Even if you do, you'll be so weak that the small negative hitpoint range leads to instant death. The game's dangerous alright - but in certain cases not fun. I value fun over perceived danger which in this case is just bad design, imo.

You'd need a totally different wounding system that simulates small wounding if you wanted accumulation. Atm hitpoints are abstract and you go from 100 to 0 in an instant.


Edit:

This whole conversation is the old dilemma of story vs gameplay. Especially in Conan where stories are about Conan and the game is about a group of people. Thanks to fate points, you can not win every fight, but that still leaves the issue where one player has to sit idly.

(ya he can play the native who carries the torch and walks in to the traps but that's not always so fun)

Edit:
Mood:

 

[Supplement Four]

So you decided not to handle the issue?

I don't see it as an issue.

The point was not survival but the fact that you drop from the first strike - and after that you have to just sit and wait. I see it as a major flaw and unfun.

That's if you use your Fate Point for the Left For Dead option. Instead, use the Fate Point for the re-roll option. If he missed his Fort Save, then spend a Fate Point to re-roll it.

If the PC misses the save again, then maybe he should be down. But, in many cases, just re-rolling once will save the character.

Thus...no problem.

Conan combat should be gritty and a little "scary" for the player.



EDIT: Plus, I have added one more Fate Point Option as a house rule. Second Wind allows the PC to spend one Fate Point to gain hit points (equal to 3 + Level + Con Modifier), and this can be done as long as the PC has at least one hit point.

 

[Majestic7]

But the stories are not filled with instances of opponent killing Conan in a single hit. That's the issue M7 is trying to solve, as far as I understood.

Conan has a good Fortitude Save plus several Fate Points.

That's how you keep PCs alive, too. Balance the award of Fate Points with how dangerous your campaign happens to be.

I think issue is realy a non-issue. The game mechanics, as-is, handle it nicely.

Posts like this are frustrating to read, because it feels like the whole point of the Acheronian Edition has not managed to go across. It is not about Player Characters dying. Combat should be lethal. It should be very dangerous. It should make the players fear for the fate of their characters.

However, it is not exciting if death is the practically guaranteed result of certain actions - such as an enemy attacking against your weak save or missing your own Power Attack against an equally experienced adversary. Ichabod had a very insightful post on the subject. Weak Wills combined with Terror checks are one way how characters may be completely incapacitated from the game, possible for hours game time. Using RAW it would be far too trivial for GM to kill every character with an equal level challenge without them really having a chance. It makes GM to pull his punches, because although heroic death is nice and occasional random death to underline dangers of combat is nice too, guaranteed death with no real chance to avoid it is a quite broken concept. Lethality of hits is not a problem. The ease which everyone have hitting everyone is the problem, especially at 10+ levels.

I could say that this is just a matter of opinion but... I don't really think it is. Mathematics are on my side. It returns to tossing coin to see who dies. If that is a good game mechanic, then okay, I guess RAW gameplay at high levels is not broken in your opinion. If it is not, then the official rules are crippled in high level play. (In regard to weak saves and attacks that target them it is more like finding a needle from a haystack than tossing a coin, but that is a bit different.)

You can amend this somewhat by tossing around Fate Points like they were candy. I think that is a very bad choice, since it trivialises them and allows PCs to survive ~anything with their high supply of FPs. Second Edition Foreshadowing sounds like a good idea very badly implemented, since it seems to allow every player to gain 1-3 Fate Points from every session. That is like giving extra lives for every session. What is the fun in combat if you don't have a genuine risk of dying?

 

[Supplement Four]

Posts like this are frustrating to read, because it feels like the whole point of the Acheronian Edition has not managed to go across.

Probably because I don't agree that such sweeping changes are needed. Little house rule tweaks here and there? Sure. What the heck. But, what you propose is just not needed, imo.

But, hey, if you and yours dig it, I won't down you. Knock yourself out.

Just enjoy the game in whatever fashion you wish to enjoy it.

However, it is not exciting if death is the practically guaranteed result of certain actions - such as an enemy attacking against your weak save or missing your own Power Attack against an equally experienced adversary. Ichabod had a very insightful post on the subject. Weak Wills combined with Terror checks are one way how characters may be completely incapacitated from the game, possible for hours game time. Using RAW it would be far too trivial for GM to kill every character with an equal level challenge without them really having a chance. It makes GM to pull his punches, because although heroic death is nice and occasional random death to underline dangers of combat is nice too, guaranteed death with no real chance to avoid it is a quite broken concept. Lethality of hits is not a problem. The ease which everyone have hitting everyone is the problem, especially at 10+ levels.

Well, I'm still playing a low level game, and therefore haven't studied the high level 10+ game. Maybe I'll change my tune when I get there.

First off, I know, from reading the early chapters of the rule book, that Conan is designed to have a level cap of sorts. It's not really designed for charcters much higher than 10th level. GMs should keep that in mind when handing out XP (since GMs have so much control over how much XP is handed out).

I suggest keep your XP awards low. Allow level advancement at a slow but perceptible pace (you don't want your players feeling stalled--keep the forward momentum). Try not to allow your players to advance in level every adventure.

Second, if the "issue" as you call it does indeed exist and is need of fixing, then I think the Archonian Edition is a bit much. A simple house rule with a Fate Point should do the trick. Simply make up a new option for Fate Point use (maybe even tie it into level, saying this option cannot be used until after 10th level).

And, you're done.

No need for all the sweeping changes from RAW. Just a simple Fate Point house rule option will do the trick.

 

[Majestic7]

This whole conversation is the old dilemma of story vs gameplay. Especially in Conan where stories are about Conan and the game is about a group of people. Thanks to fate points, you can not win every fight, but that still leaves the issue where one player has to sit idly.

(ya he can play the native who carries the torch and walks in to the traps but that's not always so fun)

Well, I've never seen the problem here. For me suspension of disbelief and a good story are the two most important things. I don't mind if we play HARN Dark Sun finally and my Approver of Fine Flesh dies from the first thrown bottle in a bar fight..or better yet, has wound from that broken bottle infect and dies slowly from a wound fever. It would nicely underline atmosphere of the game, which is supposed to be dark, gritty and a bit desperate. In some other game I would mind it a lot more if it seemed to be out of genre and/or rub against the suspension of disbelief.

 

[Majestic7]

Probably because I don't agree that such sweeping changes are needed. Little house rule tweaks here and there? Sure. What the heck. But, what you propose is just not needed, imo.

But, hey, if you and yours dig it, I won't down you. Knock yourself out.

Just enjoy the game in whatever fashion you wish to enjoy it.

Sure, no point in being RPG police at either direction and claiming someone is "gaming wrong." However, I still don't see there to be any "sweeping changes". That is only an illusion caused by some changes in how big numbers there are marked on the character sheets. The relative power level of characters and how different things work stays pretty much the same. If explanations still make it seem "sweeping", then I just have to advice you to test it a bit and see how it works in action.

First off, I know, from reading the early chapters of the rule book, that Conan is designed to have a level cap of sorts. It's not really designed for charcters much higher than 10th level. GMs should keep that in mind when handing out XP (since GMs have so much control over how much XP is handed out).

Hmm? I've noticed no such chapters in my Atlantean Edition. Anyway, if the point of the game is to play characters below or around 10th level, what is then the point of printing rules up to 20th level in the book? I've been quite conservative with both XP and FP in my opinion. Maybe Edhel has an opinion at this as a player, I don't know. It has been a long campaign. Perhaps I'll resurrect the campaign journal at some point.

No need for all the sweeping changes from RAW. Just a simple Fate Point house rule option will do the trick.

What FP trick / house rule? I really can't see any magical little trick like that available. Trust me, I looked for the simplest possible way with the least possible trouble - I've mentioned laziness as the main motivation for the Acheronian Edition at least twice in this thread, heh.

 

[Sutek]

First off, by "level cap" I think what he's intimating is that things are supposed to dry up and get less interesting in the d20 version of Conan a little more than in D&D3.X, where the wonkiness that occurs from 11+ may not have been accounted for. With minimal HP increases and similar rules post level 10, Conan clearly lays out the idea of a "Character Plateau" at that point.

Oh, and this: Edit:
Mood, because Sup4 and I are in 100% agreement:

...I never thought I'd see the day...

 

[Supplement Four]

What FP trick / house rule? I really can't see any magical little trick like that available. Trust me, I looked for the simplest possible way with the least possible trouble - I've mentioned laziness as the main motivation for the Acheronian Edition at least twice in this thread, heh.

You just have to use your noggin', that's all.

Your complaint, as I read it, is that it's too easy for a PC to get downed by a blow (Massive Damage, or whatever) at higher levels. When that happens, the player playing that character has nothing to do because his character is either incapacitated or dead.

My first instict, if I felt that way about the rules, would be to change the Massive Damage rule. Instead of 20 points, change it back to 50 points as it is in the regular 3.5 rules.

One little change, and you're done.

If you don't want to do that, consider eliminating the rule. Or, better yet, consider the Massive Damage rule to only be in effect when the attacker rolls a natural 20.

Or, you can make a tweak from the defensive point of view. Above I wrote my house tweak for the Second Wind option for Fate Point use. Consider using that in your game--or even award more hit points (Blow a Fate Point and automatically be at full hit points).


My point is: You can make one, simple rule change (either the Massive Damage, or the Fate Point) and achieve your goal. You don't need to make the multiple rule changes you've suggested with the Archeronian edition (unless you just want to). A simple rule change (or rule ignore, if you ignore Massive Damage) can get you fixed.

I know some of your argument is based on enemy weapons doing damage and wearing down PCs, killing them without doing Massive Damage. So, a Fate Point option may be the better rule change for you. Just figure a rule (like my Second Wind) that a PC can use (not unlike a potion of healing) that a PC can use when he gets low on hit points.

That will fix you right up.

You could award Fate Points for being heroic--and every time the PC rolls a natural 20 on a combat throw, he gets one as well--that should keep the PCs in Fate Points.

Minimal changes--and problem solved.

 

[Sutek]

But I don't think that's his problem, Sup4. He's saying that the math breaks apart in a way he doesn't like such that characters above 10th either have a very easy time hitting, or a very herd time hitting. The example was two Barbarians going at it, never hitting each other.

My fist though is that I'd have to see the characters and see if they are both tweaked, having all the right feats and everything to be absolutely decked out for combat prowess. My guess is that's why nobody is scoring hits.

I've been at RPGing for decades and loads of people try to build a better mousetrap, but rarely do they get it right. D20 in the 3.5 incarnation of D&D was great, but Mongoose, in my opinion, topped it, making the game flow spotless. Part of what they did was plateau everyone after 10th level so that progression became more about Class Features, Feats, and the interaction between the two (I'm meaning Multi-classing when I mention Class Feature gain also).

Racial and Class bonuses aren't the problem, but if everyone takes the Power Attack, two-handed weapon, Great Cleave combo...you're going to end up with more stand-offs or more Massive Damage saves...or both.

But, that's why I used the euphemism "throwing the baby out with the bath water" because I read the rule 'fixes' and see something that attempts to address moderate rolls resulting in too many high hit rolls, or that somehow DV is inflated and people are missing all the time. I can't imaging that being the fault of a system that I've played now for years, but more probably a miss-use of character build ideology where the end result is what we used to refer to in the olden days as a "twinky"; a character geared out to be min/maxed (now called "optimization") so that every possible bonus is eked out of the system for the sole purpose of making a combat monstrosity.

That is never a fault of the system.

Now the only thing I do like is the addition of Hero Points, because that lets players have a little more fun control over minor out-of-game things like die rolls and stuff without having to adjust or involve Fate Point rules. The rest of this is totally unnecessary.

 

[Supplement Four]

But I don't think that's his problem, Sup4. He's saying that the math breaks apart in a way he doesn't like such that characters above 10th either have a very easy time hitting, or a very herd time hitting. The example was two Barbarians going at it, never hitting each other.

Simply use Active Defense. That will cure that problem.

 

[Sutek]

Hmm..true. That puts the right sort of complete and utter randomness in, where feats and tweaking have taken it out. Normally I'd advocate against Active Defense to be used, but it would solve all the problems he's describing.

You see, my group plays under-powered, flavorful characters, and we rarely look at the math of things to pick all the right feats and stuff to be a crew of total badasses. Also, we rarely play characters beyond 12-15th level, because...well...it's just worked out that personal player goals or whatever have always been reached by then. You know what I mean? Dalmoran becomes King of Brythunia, or Odaka Daan achieves leadership of all Western Thieves guilds. That kind of thing. The we retire those guys, make new ones, and they can meet their old characters as important NPCs. We like that better than just working to get to 20th level. I'd say we rarely have played PCs higher than 12th lvl.

 

[Krushnak]

If I had to think up a band-aid to ease the pain, I'd suggest some kind of second wind mechanic. One suggested in Unearthed Arcana was (iirc) some kind of healing pool that you can use to heal yourself out of combat. The size of the pool is, of course, totally arbitary, eg. half max hp.

Theres a second wind rule in Iron Heroes that i like and have been thinking about using. You get another hp pool equal to your main one that you can swap hp's over at a rate of 1 per minute aslong as you arent in combat. this extra pool of hp regens at the same amount as your main one but you have to get to full on your main pool before you can start to fill up your secondary one.

Just a question thats been bugging me, why has everyone got a greatsword or bardiche? Just cause their lvl 20 doesnt mean they cant be bumming it with nothing but a loin cloth and a nasty looking rock for a weapon.

 

[Supplement Four]

You see, my group plays under-powered, flavorful characters, and we rarely look at the math of things to pick all the right feats and stuff to be a crew of total badasses.

Oh my gods! Another thing we have in common, Sutek!

Yeah, my group is far from "Conan" types.

Two of the three main characters have STR 7. That's -2 damage. They use poinards. That's 1d6 damage.

Which is 1-4 points of damage, with the STR modifier.

Oh, and if they can't hit using finesse, something like leather armor (DR 4) means that, if they hit, they have to roll a 5 or 6 to score even 1 point of damage (using the minimum damage rule).

Boil this down...when they hit, they've got a 1/3 chance to score 1 point of damage.

Definitely not "Conan".

These guys are 15 and 18 year old kids.

...And, we're having a blast!

The 15 year old just made his first kill. The player describes how its effecting this...child...having blood on his hands for the first time.

My kind of game.

 

[Oly]

Two of the three main characters have STR 7. That's -2 damage. They use poinards. That's 1d6 damage.

Which is 1-4 points of damage, with the STR modifier.

Oh, and if they can't hit using finesse, something like leather armor (DR 4) means that, if they hit, they have to roll a 5 or 6 to score even 1 point of damage (using the minimum damage rule).

Boil this down...when they hit, they've got a 1/3 chance to score 1 point of damage.

By the Atlantian Edition rules they would always do one point of damage, that's if using the optional minimum damage rule.

Negative penalties do not reduce the damage dealt to less than 1. So on a roll of 1 to 3 they do 1 point of damage before armour.

Then if you do use the minimum damage rule armour does not reduce damage to less than 1.

So the worst they will do will be to roll a 1, giving 1 point of damage, which is reduced to less than 1 by the DR so it stays a 1.

The best they will do will be to roll a 6, giving 4 points of damage, reduced to less than 1 by the DR so it too becomes a 1.

So no matter what damage they roll they will do 1 point of damage.

Maybe things changed in the 2nd Edition but that's how it is in the previous ones. To quote the optional rule, "those bumps, bruises and minor concussions all add up."

 

[Supplement Four]

By the Atlantian Edition rules they would always do one point of damage, that's if using the optional minimum damage rule.

Not quite (according to the 2nd Edition rules).

First off, I'm not using the Optional Minimum Damage Rule. That rule focuses on armor damage reduction and provides a successful hit with one point of non-lethal damage. We're not messing with that.

The minimum damage rule I refer to is the one on page 170 of the 2E rule book (it's not the optional rule to which you refer).

What that rule states is that if penalties the reduce damage result to fewer than one, a hit still deals one point of damage.

But, this rule does not apply to damage reduction (which is why the Optional Minimum Damage Rule is listed 9 pages later), and, a paragraph above the minimum damage rule, it is stated: When a character's attack succeeds, he deals damage, some or all of which may be negated by his opponent's armor.

So, in a nutshell: The minimum damage done in this game is 1 point of damage unless armor reduces damage to zero.


So...

I've got characters with STR 7. That's a -2 Damage modifier.

They use poinards, doing 1d6 -2 damage when they hit. Minimum damage is 1 point.

They are currently fighting foes wearing leather armor (DR 4).

Which means...when they hit but are unsuccessful with a finesse attack...

d6 result of 1-4 = 0 points of damage because of armor damage reduction.

d6 result of 5-6 = 1 point of damage under the minimum damage rule.