[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[galloglaich]

We give the guy with the larger weapon (or a missile weapon) a 'Free Dice' on initiative rolls.

G.

But what if he does not uses that weapon, even if he got an Initiative bonus for that weapon?
What if he does something completely crazy or runs away or bull-rushes an enemy?
I really hate to declare what I do at the beginnig.
When the Initiative Count reaches you, you decide what to do according to what happens.

We only grant the Free Dice for someone who has 'readied' their weapon; but winning initiative does not require you to declare anything or to act first, you can wait (hold your action) to see what other people do first if you want.

The idea is that if you have a longer weapon (or if you are the only guy with the missile weapon... or a melee weapon which can be used both ways like a spear) it gives you a slightly improved chance to act first, but a Free Dice by no means guarantees you are going to win Initiative.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

Even if you don't use the Martial Pool (though you should! ) I recommend the mechanic of the 'Free Dice' (roll two dice and keep the higher number) conferred in different situations. This is a very good way to replace the equivalent of a +4 die roll bonus; players like it because it reduces the likelihood of a fumble or a very low roll, and it makes the fight a bit more dynamic.

G.

OK, maybe you are right about attacks, but in Conan you cannot do that for Parries and Dodges which are fixed values, not modifiable by a roll

The Codex uses both an Active Defense and a Passive system Passive defense, i.e. a target number like in Conan. It's not at all uncommon to run out of Martial Pool dice for active defense.

Adding the option of Active defense is not as painful as it probably sounds in terms of integrating with SRD though it is a lot easier to do if you have a Martial Pool (because then you introduce the element of Strategy on whether to use Active of Passive defense and how much dice to use for counterattacks etc.


I should also mention the other important mechanic in Codex combat, the Counterattack and the Bind. If the attacker rolls a fumble (natural 1) or the Defender rolls a natural 20 on Active Defense, the defender gets an automatic Counerattack. There are also Martial Feats which enhance this ability.

If you get a tie roll when one guy is attacking and the other Actively defending, it's a Bind. This can be used to break the other persons weapon (you can apply your damage to their weapon) and it can trigger all kinds of other things based on different Martial Feats. For example you can grab thier weapon (very good option against a Spear), or there is one based on this famous image from Talhoffer, where if you get a bind you can kick or punch your opponent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/De_Fechtbuch_Talhoffer_012.jpg

There are also a lot of other MF like, Mutierin (Mutate), where if you strike and the other guy binds, you can then switch immediately to a thrust.

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

mmmmm...I'll think about it.
I' fascinated by the triple stats but I do not want my Conan rpg game to be transformed completely with your dice pools.
Coming back to triple stats, what you do for the Unarmed Attacks? Do they have triple stats too or not?

 

[galloglaich]

The default for unarmed attacks is 0/6/0 but that can be modified by various Martial Feats (indicating skill or training in unarmed combat)

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I ask you another question or, rather, an opinion.
I really like the triple stats (and I'll maybe use with a reduced scale grid to keep track of positions) but I really do not want to over-change my Conan games, I just want to add something from your "a-la-carte menu of crunchy combat options ", to use an expression from the codex .
One thing is to say to my lazy players to add a few mods to their weapons, another is to teach them a whole new way to play Conan (and they are TOO LAZY to learn something else...).

So, I'm interested in using triple stats but with Conan system (which means fixed Parry & Dodge, not defence rolls.)

I want a system (like Conan rpg is) where all the stats are calculated before the game and, during the combat, the only thing I have to do is to roll a dice, add it to the total Atk mod and compare it to Parry or Dodge stat.
So...

We have seen that weapons & Shields give Parry a bonus (Triple stats).
What about Dodge? I do not think that Weapon or Shield Def Bonus should be added to Dodge.
Weapon shape influences parry...but what influences dodge? I though it is body shape.
Personal Body Stats are already added (Str to Parry, Dex to Dodge), but how can we make Dodge comparable to Parry (and its weapon Def bonuses)?
My solution was to DOUBLE the influence of Dex (and therefore of armour encumbrance) to the Dodge stat:

WEAPON PARRY:
10 + Class Mod + Str Mod + Weapon Mod + Shield Mod

DODGE:
10 + Class Mod + Dex Mod +4 + Dex Mod (again).

UNARMED PARRY:
10 + Class Mod + Str Mod + Dex Mod (-4, UNLESS one has Improved Unarmed combat)

 

[galloglaich]

Makes sense to me.

Maybe Parry and Dodge should also add the skill level or BaB...? Not sure precisely what Class Mod means maybe that is the same thing. But the more experienced you are at fighting the better you will be at parrying or dodging (what we call voiding in the Codex).

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

For "Class mod" I meant the Parry or Dodge Bonus that each Conan class gives at each level (e.g. Barbarians get slightly better dodges, Soldiers get slightly better parries, etc..).

Sorry if I look logorrheic!
In the formulas above I added a +4 to dodge. That +4 was added to answer S4 who wanted a free +8 bonus to dodge. Anyway, thinking again, they are both too high, so I will delete that +4 now!!

Here my new line of thoughts:

ACTUAL SITUATION WITH CONAN 2E RULES
(without considering bonuses from Feats and/or Special Abilities)
ATTACK: d20 + BAB + Str/Dex (if finesse)
PARRY: 10 + Class Mod + Str + Shield Bonus
DODGE: 10 + Class Mod + Dex + (Shield Bonus only for dodging arrows)
UNARMED PARRY: 10 + Class Mod + Str Mod -4 (UNLESS one has Improved Unarmed combat)


CONAN 2E RULES WITH CODEX TRIPLE STATS
(without considering bonuses from Feats and/or Special Abilities)
The new Bonuses are in bold.
So, to be statistically balanced, if we give 1 bonus to attack we must add 1 bonus to Defense, not 2 or 0 bonuses.
And so, here my final formulas:
ATTACK: d20 + BAB + Str/Dex (if finesse) + Weapon Mod (Onset or Melee)
PARRY: 10 + Class Mod + Str + Shield Bonus + Weapon Defense Mod.
DODGE: 10 + Class Mod + Dex + (Shield Bonus only for dodging arrows) + Dex (again)
UNARMED PARRY: 10 + Class Mod + Str Mod -4 (UNLESS one has Improved Unarmed combat) + Dex Mod


ADDENDA TO THE ABOVE RULES:

- you should use a 2.5 ft - scaled grid (each sq: 2.5 ft) in order to keep track of who is at onset range (1 sq. between 2 enemies) and who is in melee range (adjacent square).

- In this scale 10 ft Reach weapons (Warspears) act at 3 or 4 squares; 15 ft Reach weapons (??) act at 5 or 6 sqaures; 20 ft Reach weapons (pikes) act at 7 or 8 squares.

- Medium characters still occupy 1 square. Large Characters still occupy 4 squares: in effects those squares are fully occupied by their bodies, while their reach are includes all the squares around.

- NOTE: Creature Reach Stats are not really changed- HUmans still can attack at 5ft, but in this scale it means 2 squares, not 1 square.

IMPORTANT:
- you can change a free 5 ft step for one or two 2.5 ft steps.

This has 2 consequences:

- In order to keep with the usual AoO System: there is no attack of opportunity for movements of 5ft or less. So, if you leave the Onset for Melee range with a free 2.5 halfstep, your enemy cannot make an attack of opportunity vs you. But see the following note:

- When one charges (or moves and then attacks) he has the opportunity to hit already at Onset range.
However, somebody would like to charge directly into Melee range to better exploit the Melee range weapon (e.g. somebody with an hatchet which has 1/3/1), so, in theory HE COULD charge directly into melee range.
HOWEVER, he receives an AoO when he leaves the Onset Range!
That's the supreme advtantage of a Spear, even of a Hunting Spear, which can really be efficient with this AoO!
How the Charger can avoid that AoO?
Simple: charge into Onset Range and make that attack at Onset Range. Next round you make a free 2.5 step into Melee range and you can attack there.
2.5 ft and 5 ft Free steps NEVER provokes AoO (as Core Rules).
Normal Move from a Threatened sq Always provokes AoO (as Core Rules)

WEAPONS
At this point the only thing which remains to be done is to see the triple stats for every Conan weapon.
The problem is that while the Codex is an historically accurate work, not all Conan weapons had real-life easily-identifiable counterparts.
For example, while the Conan "Arming sword" is the same of the Codex "arming Sowrd", the Conan 2-handed Tulwar, is definitively not the Codex Tulwar.
We need to make a list of comparable weapons.
When I'll have time, I'll do that.

 

[galloglaich]

I'm sure you can find equivalent weapons, there are several different types of two-handed sabers to choose from for example, from subtle fencing weapons to crude (but lethal) choppers....

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think that there may be a way to use the triple stats and the three ranges and still use the standard 5' Conan range squares.

Consider grapple range to be inside the foe's square, as it is in Conan.

The default combat range is Melee range, and this is the 5' square adjacent to the enemy.

Onset range is also 5', but it's an "off" square. It's the last 2.5 feet of the Melee Range square (they over lap) and it's the first 2.5 feet of the next square out, 10' from the foe.

This is not a new concept in Conan. Look at Dodge. In order to Dodge, a character needs to have room to maneuver. In the rules, this is represented by having at least one unblocked square in which to dodge EVEN IF THE CHARACTER DOESN'T ACTUALLY MOVE INTO THAT SQUARE.

Onset range could be considered something akin to this.



Consider anyone who fights from 10' away (as with a reach weapon) to always be at Onset range.

Consider the first attack as the character moves to combat a foe to be at onset range and then default into melee range.





You only need to know about Onset range for an attack, correct? It doesn't affect Defense, right?

Thus, if a character is in the 5' square adjacent to an enemy, just before each of his attacks, he can make an "Onset" check. I think I saw a Martial Feat that allowed the character to maintain range. Maybe that would work. Either way, if the character wants to attack from Onset range, he rolls a check to make sure he's maintained the range and not fallen into melee range.

If no check exists in the Codex, then maybe it's a simple matter of doing an opposed DEX check--or maybe an opposed Dodge check.

Or maybe we don't need to make any check at all. Maybe the character with a long weapon is considered to be at Onset range until his enemy, with a standard melee range weapon, hits him. Then the character is considered to be at Onset range.

And then again...maybe it doesn't have to be this complicated at all. A character can move 5' for free, into a new square, during combat, with his five foot step. Maybe a character can be at onset range simply because the player says he is.

Thoughts to consider.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Changing Scale is not that complicated.
If you read carefully my "addenda" above, you'll notice that they are all obvious consequences of the Conan 2e rules but fit to a smaller case.
I did not bring any new rule other than the triple stats.

If you want to use the triple stats, there are 2 big advantages in going to a 2.5 ft scale:

1) You can keep record of the exact position of everybody. Imagine a massive combat scene, mayebe one of those dramatic scenes you get at the end of an adventure, with 5 PCs + 5 allies vs 3 powerful enemies and their 15 thralls = 10 people vs 18 people.
I think it is a mess to record who is in the range of whom and at which range!
Furthermore, one can be at onset range to somebody...but a melee range to somebody else!
There is a whole tactical new world opening if you go to this scale...and you can easily keep track of it with this 2.5 ft scale!

2) You can treat Onset range in a more realistic way, and not just for first attack.
Spear-wielders will never want to get closer to the enemy, so they remain in the onset range.
On the other hand, short sword-wielders will want to immediately go to Melee range.
If they try to immediately rush into Melee range with a direct charge they get a AoO, but if they are patient and go there with a step in the next round they are OK.
In cases likes these AoO and 2.5ft/5ft squares become essential tools!

I'm seriously thinking that the only way to use triple stats in Conan and not change heavily the system is the 2.5 ft grid!

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm seriously thinking that the only way to use triple stats in Conan and not change heavily the system is the 2.5 ft grid!

I'm not sure I'm willing to use the 2.5' grid, and I think I can find an easier way to keep track of Onset Range. I need to read more of the Codex first.

But, I will say this: As you are, I'm intrigued by the three stat concept. I like how it bings more choice in selecting weapons. Some weapons are good on the first strike, some are good for defense, and some are quick in combat.

If I use the three modifiers, though, I think the thing to do is subtract -4 from all of them. This will make the modifiers more palatable with the Conan game.

You'll still have the same range, but you won't be adding +8 to a roll. You'll be adding +4. In some cases, you'll be subtracting.



Thus..

A one-handed Hunting Spear would be: +4/-4/-2

A short-sword would be: -2/+0/-2

A broadsword would be: -1/+0/-2

An arming sword would be: -1/-1/-1

A battle axe would be: -1/-2/-2

A greatsword would be: +1/-3/+0

And so on...



I think these numbers are a lot easier to deal with than the ones given in the codex.





EDIT: Plus, with defense numbers that will usually be negative numbers, it might solve the Dodge problem by just using Dodge the way it is without change. Many of the weapons will put a penalty on the Parry, so the Dodge can roll normally (Dodge bonus + DEX bonus).

I haven't thought this all the way through, but at least right now, before I go to bed, it seems reasonable.





2nd EDIT: I also like that, in doing the three stats this way, it kind of gives us a defacto required STR to use the weapon.

For example, the greatsword: +1/-3/+0

That basically says that, to wield the weapon effectively (have a +0 on the Speed attack), a STR 16 is required (because STR 16 has a +3 mod).





3rd EDIT: I'm thinking that, when parrying, a character uses his weapon OR a shield. He doesn't use both modifiers.

Thus, if a Barbarian used a Targe and an arming sword, he could Parry with the +3 bonus from the Targe, or he could use the arming sword with a -1 penalty to the parry.

This keeps our parry bonuses from getting too high and hightens the value of shields.

Again, haven't thought it through--just thinking out loud here. Probably think differently in the morning.

 

[LucaCherstich]

QUESTION FOR GALLOGLAICH:
I would like to print your "weapons of the ancient world", but since it is a lot of ink, before doing it, I would like to know: do you plan any update of that in the near future?

 

[Supplement Four]

QUESTION FOR GALLOGLAICH:
I would like to print your "weapons of the ancient world", but since it is a lot of ink, before doing it, I would like to know: do you plan any update of that in the near future?

Yeah, I just printed and bound all three books. Sheesh! Took forever.

I wish so much art wasn't in the books.

 

[galloglaich]

They are available reasonably cheap through Lulu, in black in white. Color is very expensive of course.

By way of explanation, I put all the images in there, which were very difficult to find and secure rights for, so that gamers could see for themselves what real antiques looked like rather than rely on my (or my artists) interpretaton. I did another book like this before for Riddle of Steel and we used an artist, but I felt even though we went to a lot of efforts to make realistic illustrations, something was lost in translation. As we learn more about these weapons we realize how important some seemingly insignificant details really are. I really wrote these books so gamers could have a bit more of a grip on how interesting and rich the heritage of actual arms and armor and fighting techniques from History are, as compared to some rather tired fantasy genre cliches which I've become bored with. I wanted to help re-inject some life back into the whole fighting side of all this

Here are some examples of two handed sabers

Schwiesersabel (Swiss)

Kriegsmesser (German)

Bagua Dao (Chinese)

Hungarian infantry Saber (Hungarian / Serbian)

Miao-Dao (Chinese)

No Dachi (Japanese)

Dacian Falx (Dacians, South East European tribesemen)
This weapon might be most suitable for Conan given it's extreme age, it goes back to the early Iron age and possibly the Bronze Age.

Dha (Thai / Burmese) (which I wrote a little article about, since I have a friend who owns several of these antiques)

http://www.codexmartialis.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26

G

 

[galloglaich]

3rd EDIT: I'm thinking that, when parrying, a character uses his weapon OR a shield. He doesn't use both modifiers.

Not sure what works best in the game but in real life you definitely will parry with both the shield and the weapon together, there are many specific techniques for this. I33 for example is all about using buckler and sword together very closely.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

For example, the greatsword: +1/-3/+0

That basically says that, to wield the weapon effectively (have a +0 on the Speed attack), a STR 16 is required (because STR 16 has a +3 mod).

Keep in mind that in the Codex, the Martial Feats play a major role sometimes in how weapons stats were designed. Longswords and Greatswords are actually not slow weapons, are not heavy and do not require great strength to wield. That is actually one of the major cliches I wanted to 'fix' with the Codex.

The stats there are made to reflect the fact they are weapons used by more elite warriors, and that if you don't have any training, they are much less effective; if you have the false-edge cut and twitch cut MF, and the Winding MF, these weapons become almost as fast as daggers in the Codex rule, which is also true in real life. It's kind of hard to explain this without seeing it so I think maybe a video is worth a thousand words here:

Ok this is SCA, which is what most people are familiar with. NOT BASED ON HISTORICAL TECHNIQUES This is basially how people will use a longsword if they don't have martial arts training with the weapon (i.e the default stats for the weapon).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsNB3NIbJ7c


Ok by contrast, these guys are actually Trained in historical techniques from fencing manuals written in the 15th Century, they are doing drill here (this video starts out with the Zwerchau 'Master-Cut' technique, relying on the exact type of false-edge cut I'm referring to in the Codex, followd by a 'tiwtch' using both edges of the longsword is key to making it a fast weapon)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln94E9AGYTc

Here are people Trained in historical techniques, Sparring in a tournament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9Mtc4kveA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kJyRVtG4e0

This is a good promotional vid from a group in Poland, mixed training and sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7aXtzf7-Lk&feature=related

Hopefully the difference between historical and non-historical techniques is apparent even if you aren't into Martial Arts, and it's clear that the longsword (hand-and-a-half sword or bastard sword in most RPGs) is actually a really fast weapon the hands of a trained Martial Artist, in fact it's probably one of the fastest weapons.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

Or not...

 

[Supplement Four]

Not sure what works best in the game but in real life you definitely will parry with both the shield and the weapon together, there are many specific techniques for this. I33 for example is all about using buckler and sword together very closely.

G.

I was trying to keep the modifiers down to a reasonable level. I do think Conan works better if we subtract -4 from the stats and end up with penalty as well as bonus modifiers. The net effect stays the same, and we're not adding +8 to an attack throw.

I was thinking, with weapons, animals, and beasties, just use the -4 to reduce the triple stats.

With bows and other missile weapons, they would use a standard -4 to hit.





I said what I said about either/or the Shield Parry or the Weapon Parry, meaning to allow a character to switch between both. You wouldn't use a shield and a sword to parry at the same time, would you? You'd use either.

I can see arguments for both sides, depending on how simulationist is your game.




Galloglaich, two questions:

1: How would you resolve Dodge when merging the Conan rules and the Codex? In the Conan RPG, Dodge acts like the parry. With Active Defense, Dodge = 1d20 + DEX modifier + Class Dodge Bonus (like a BAB, but for Dodges).

2: How would you keep track of Onset Range when using a 5' grid?

 

[galloglaich]

I was trying to keep the modifiers down to a reasonable level. I do think Conan works better if we subtract -4 from the stats and end up with penalty as well as bonus modifiers. The net effect stays the same, and we're not adding +8 to an attack throw.

No no, I quite understand that and it makes perfect sense to me. I was just pointing out that the stats of some weapons like the greatsword are partly dependent on the Martial Feats, so you might want to tweak them accordingly if you are not using those.

I said what I said about either/or the Shield Parry or the Weapon Parry, meaning to allow a character to switch between both. You wouldn't use a shield and a sword to parry at the same time, would you? You'd use either.

I can see arguments for both sides, depending on how simulationist is your game.

Well in real life you do sometimes, but as you say this is an issue perhaps of a level of detail. If you are allowed to make up new maneuvers for Conan RpG (or for your homebrew vrsion) maybe you can make a special maneuver for this. In buckler (small shield) fencing you may stop an attack with both the buckler and the shield and then bind the opponents weapon with the buckler while you cut or stab them with the sword.

1: How would you resolve Dodge when merging the Conan rules and the Codex? In the Conan RPG, Dodge acts like the parry. With Active Defense, Dodge = 1d20 + DEX modifier + Class Dodge Bonus (like a BAB, but for Dodges).

Well like I said before, we have 'Void' in the Codex, which works like Dodge, you don't get quite as good a defense obviously as if you were using a shield or a weapon with good defensive characteristics, but there are Martial Feats which can enhance your ability to void a great deal especially if you have room to move around. Like Distance Fighting. If you don't want to use the Free Dice you can just replace that with a +2 or a +4. Like say, if you have room to move around, and you have this particular maneuver or ability, you get a +4 to Parry. [/quote]

2: How would you keep track of Onset Range when using a 5' grid?

Like I said upthread, we don't use a marker or anything, the person who is advantaged or disadvantaged in the fight by the current range (either the player or the DM typically) seems to be able to keep track of this with no problem. I think the issue really in Conan will be what mechanic do you use to change range, since you don't have anything like the Martial Pool. If it doesn't cost you anything to move into the right range before attacking basically everyone will fight at their optimal range all the time.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

No no, I quite understand that and it makes perfect sense to me. I was just pointing out that the stats of some weapons like the greatsword are partly dependent on the Martial Feats, so you might want to tweak them accordingly if you are not using those.

Except that the Codex, with all those Martial Feats, is quite complex by itself. It would be a task to separate out the parts that favor the weapons.

Well in real life you do sometimes, but as you say this is an issue perhaps of a level of detail. If you are allowed to make up new maneuvers for Conan RpG (or for your homebrew vrsion) maybe you can make a special maneuver for this. In buckler (small shield) fencing you may stop an attack with both the buckler and the shield and then bind the opponents weapon with the buckler while you cut or stab them with the sword.

I believe there is already a combat maneuver in Conan to that effect where you can trap a weapon.

2: How would you keep track of Onset Range when using a 5' grid?

Like I said upthread, we don't use a marker or anything, the person who is advantaged or disadvantaged in the fight by the current range (either the player or the DM typically) seems to be able to keep track of this with no problem. I think the issue really in Conan will be what mechanic do you use to change range, since you don't have anything like the Martial Pool. If it doesn't cost you anything to move into the right range before attacking basically everyone will fight at their optimal range all the time.

G.[/quote]

Ah, I see. So, in Conan , we could make range determination in the 5' square one of the benefits of having initiative. That person will always pick his optimal range, of course, but that range might not be optimal for his foe.

That could work.

As for changing range...does there need to be a penalty for doing so?





EDIT: We could look to the OPTIONAL D20 FACING RULE to help guide us on how to account for changing Melee and Onset range in the same square.