[CONAN] Gods and Demons

[Supplement Four]

My observation is that, in Howard's Hyborian Age, that there was little proof of the gods but lots of proof of demons. The gods, themselves seem to exist in name only, not unlike the Roman or Greek gods--people believe in them and exclaim their names, but there is little proof that the gods actually exist (unlike other fantasy worlds where gods involve themselves directly in the story).

Demons, on the other hand, seem to be another case. Demons definitely exist in Howard's Hyborian Age, because Conan fights them, and sorcerery is sometimes wrought through them.

So, if my observation is true, the general rule for the Hyborian Age is that if a god exists only because characters pray to him and exult their existence, then the god is a god. Crom. Derketa. Ishtar. Tarim. Bel. Mitra. These are all gods because we've never seen the god actually do anything as if it were a real entity in any Howard story (pastiches, I think, don't always get it "right").

If the god-like-being does have an overt part in a story and effects the environment, then the god is not a god. It is a demon. It may be worshipped as a god, but the being is a demon. Ollam-Onga is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Set? I'm not so sure about. Set could be a god, and episodes like Howard's The God in the Bowl is a case of a Set worshipping zealot using a demon, sorcerous creature, or something other in the name of Set.

What do you think?

 

[Spectator]

I guess if demons exist then so do gods.

 

[Supplement Four]

It seems that I overlooked some godly intervention in the Howard stories. It doesn't happen often, but it seems that Mitra did speak to the princess at the beginning of Black Colossus.

 

[Mach5RR]

It seems that I overlooked some godly intervention in the Howard stories. It doesn't happen often, but it seems that Mitra did speak to the princess at the beginning of Black Colossus.

Maybe. Maybe not.

"Mitra has spoken," replied the princess. "It might have been the voice of the god, or a trick of a priest. No matter. I will go!"

While Howard presents demons and things that wander the outer dark, he's not as forthcoming with the deities of the Hyborian age. With every appearance of something godlike, he gives you some sort of "out' to argue that maybe it's not.

Heck, one of the most powerful beings, "Taghoolan yok tha, xuthulla!", as presented in Iron Shadows of the Moon is only ever seen in a dream of Olivia's. He is never referenced any other way.

 

[Spectator]

What about Khosatrel Khel?
The Devil in Iron.
Didn't REH say he was god?
The only way Conan slew him was with a special Yuetshi Bane Knife.

 

[Supplement Four]

What about Khosatrel Khel?.

Could have been something other than a god--an Outsider--but not a real god.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I think we are all trying to classify things from a gamer's point of view.
In many cases you cannot distinguish Gods from Demons.

We should approach gods & demons of the Hyborian age from a kind of "anthropological" point of view.
For example, thinking in purely Hyborian terms..what's the difference between a foreign god (e.g. Asura or Erlik) and a demon?
I like the HYborian age rpg since it is really like a kind of ancient world in the way gods & demons are dealt with.
And I also feel that what we call "demons" are nothing but lesser entities which appear more often...simply because they are lesser!
My interpretation is that Set himself will never bother answering a Stygian slave farmer's prayer, but maybe a little demon will do, if it has something in mind to get in return...

This is not Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, where you know who is a God and who is a Demon according to their game stats.
Mitra is not a Lawful Good major god.
And Khosatral Khel is not a Greater Tanar'ri, maybe you could treat it as an "outsider" with Outsider game stats....but at this point Mitra is an outsider too, but with stats so incredible to be outside any game scale and so one cannot calculate them....
In reality, trying to categorize Hyborian Gods & Demons in this way is a bunch of bullshit.
Khosatral Kell's stats exist only because it is FUN to play a game where you can beat him.
His stats exist only because a rpg session must be played and a story must be told.

In a few words, I feel that the exact size of godly and "demonic" intervent should be managed only according to the Master's needs in telling a story.

 

[kintire]

While Howard presents demons and things that wander the outer dark, he's not as forthcoming with the deities of the Hyborian age. With every appearance of something godlike, he gives you some sort of "out' to argue that maybe it's not.

The oracle said to place her kingdom in the hands of the first man she met... and that just happened to be the greatest hero of the age. That's either a divine oracle or a very very very large coincidence...

And Olivia's dream had a lot of Iron Statues as circumstantial support!

I think this is a difference that makes no difference. Demons and gods differ only in their quality of Public Relations, with only Mitra being maybe different.