[CONAN] Don't let the sword hit you om yhe way out.

[Supplement Four]

was thinking about the Attack of Opportunity a character gets when his foe leaves the character's threaten area.

Doesn't that seem bass aackwards?

Isn't it harder to charge up a hill than retreat from it?

Shouldn't it be harder to approach someone (who is expecting you) and land a blow on them that it would be to increase your distance from them?

It seems to me that AoOs should be given as foes ENTER the threatened space of a character, not the other way around.



If I'm fighting Mike Tyson, I think it would be hard to even approach him and begin the combat. But, if I were already in the combat, it seems a bit easier to retreat and put distance between us.



If the d20 rules allowed for an AoO as someone ENTERS a threatened space, then fighters would dance around each other, just out of melee range, looking for that particular hole in the foe's defenses in which to strike.

Boxers do this. Real life fighters do this. It seems to make a lot of sense and replicate real life.

Why do you think the d20 is to allow the AoO when leaving a threatened space instead of entering it?

 

[Spectator]

You know, I remember thinking that the first time I played dnd in the 80s. As a kid, it made no sense at all that some dude who was expecting to get hit and then sees his opponent high-tail it in the distance gets a freebie! I just kinda accepted it, and did not think much of it until you brought it up.


THE ONLY ALLOWABLE was that crap could happen would be if your chicken-ass opponent had a slower move allowance than you. Even then, he should get the jump on you for the first round until you caught up with him in round two, right?

Bravo S4!!!

 

[Supplement Four]

This would be a neat mechanic (thinking outloud here): Two combatants square off, neither willing to jump in and risk the AoO from the other.



As a free action (or maybe it should be a standard or a move action?), a character rolls an Appraise check (Appraise to best guess when to enter into combat). His foe does not yet roll his Sense Motive check in answer to the Appraise roll. Therefore the player must decide, on the strength of his roll, without yet seeing what his enemy rolls in response, whether to keep circling his enemy or dash in and make an attack.



Once the player decides to attack, the foe immediatly rolls Sense Motive against the players Appraise throw. If the foe wins, he still gets his AoO. If the payer wins, the character has successfully found a hole in his opponent's defenses and exploits it.



That's kinda neat, huh? Maybe the actual skills uses should change, but I like the uncertain action. Sounds fun.

 

[Supplement Four]

There's a feat in the Warrior's book called Hold Ground that does exactly what I'm discussing in this thread.

I'm thinking of making that Feat a Combat Maneuver--another tactical option for the combatants.

 

[Jeraa]

Why do you think the d20 is to allow the AoO when leaving a threatened space instead of entering it?

Because of the way AoOs work. It is not clearly stated in the book (but it is in the 3.5 D&D FAQ, and since Conan is based on those rules, it should work the same), but AoOs occur before the action that triggered them. (Though it is mentioned briefly in the Unarmed Attacks section under Standard Actions)

So, if an AoO was triggered by entering a threatened space, the attack would come while the creature is still outside your threatened area, and you couldn't reach him to attack. But since the rule is you provoke by leaving a threatened space, the creature would always be in range for an AoO.

 

[Supplement Four]

Sensible explaination, Jeraa

 

[rabindranath72]

But in 3e and d20 Conan (page 156 Atlantean Edition,) you may be subject to an attack of opportunity even when you enter a threatened area, unless you approach the movement cautiously. This is particularly appropriate for weapons with a reach, so if you move within the threatened area and want to close and attack in the same round, you are subject to an attack of opportunity. Note that the rules speak about "leaving a threatened square" but this does not imply moving away from an enemy. Even closing with an enemy within a 10' range are implies that you are leaving the 10' range and moving within the 5' range.

Regarding the older editions, in AD&D 1e you could not move your full range and attack in the same round, unless it was with a charge. But then, a charging creature was subject to an attack out of initiative sequence if the defender had a reach weapon.
This rule was lost in Classic D&D, and only partially implemented in 2e (you had a bonus to initiative when setting weapons vs. charge.) In 3e they folded all these rules (and the ones to depart from a fight) into the AoO framework.

 

[Supplement Four]

But in 3e and d20 Conan (page 156 Atlantean Edition,) you may be subject to an attack of opportunity even when you enter a threatened area, unless you approach the movement cautiously.

Interesting. Unless I've missed it somewhere, that rule was changed in 2E.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Exactly.
And this is a stupid rule.
If it works, everybody charging vs everybody will suffer an AoO....

 

[Supplement Four]

I just looked at pg. 156 of AE, and I don't see any such rule.

In fact, on pg. 155, it is stipulated that if you move out of a threatened square, you draw an AoO (just like the 2E rule).

Rabindranath, I think you mis-read the rule.

 

[rabindranath72]

I just looked at pg. 156 of AE, and I don't see any such rule.

In fact, on pg. 155, it is stipulated that if you move out of a threatened square, you draw an AoO (just like the 2E rule).

Rabindranath, I think you mis-read the rule.

Yes, the rule states "when you leave a square."
BUT, leaving a square doesn't imply moving away from an enemy. For weapons which have a reach, this means that you cannot move and attack the defender (wielding a polearm, say) in the same round without receiving an AoO, because you must leave the square at 10' to move at the square at 5'. So, "leaving a square" in some situations translates as "moving within a threatened area." But, if you approach cautiously, you can avoid the AoO. So, in the example above, you first move within 10' of the polearm-wielding defender, and the next round, you take a 5' step and attack.

This is more or less the equivalent of the AD&D1e rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, the rule states "when you leave a square."
BUT, leaving a square doesn't imply moving away from an enemy.

Are you saying that you think a person gets an AoO when he leaves one threatened square into another?

123
456
789

The foe occupies space 5. Spaces 123, 46, and 789 are his threatened squares.

If your character runs in front of the foe in space 5, entering from the left of space 1, into space 2, then space 3, then keep going in that line to the right of space 3, where do you think you will be attacked with the AoO?

 

[rabindranath72]

Yes, the rule states "when you leave a square."
BUT, leaving a square doesn't imply moving away from an enemy.

Are you saying that you think a person gets an AoO when he leaves one threatened square into another?

123
456
789

The foe occupies space 5. Spaces 123, 46, and 789 are his threatened squares.

If your character runs in front of the foe in space 5, entering from the left of space 1, into space 2, then space 3, then keep going in that line to the right of space 3, where do you think you will be attacked with the AoO?

He will get attacked in spaces 2 and 3, since he is moving within a threatened area (i.e. he first leaves sq.1 and then sq.2.)
There is a nice example in the appendix to the 2nd printing of the 3.0 PHB which shows something similar.

 

[Supplement Four]

He will get attacked in spaces 2 and 3, since he is moving within a threatened area (i.e. he first leaves sq.1 and then sq.2.)

Actually, he gets attacked in 1 as he leaves it, 2 as he leaves it, and 3 as he leaves it. Of course, the character in space 5 would have to have Combat Reflexes and a high DEX to pull that off.

He gets attacked in the square that he is leaving. You say above that he gets attacked in 2 as he leaves 1. This is incorrect. You've got to consider weapon reach.

1234
567
890

For example, if a character is in space 5 fighting a foe in space 2, and another foe enters the character's threatened area "above" space 3, takes a left turn, then moves out to space 4, this does provoke an Attack of Opportunity from the character at 5. But the character cannot reach 4 as his weapon reach is only 5'. He attacks the new foe in space 3 the moment before that foe leaves the space (as he leaves it).

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. From your previous post, I wasn't sure.

There is a nice example in the appendix to the 2nd printing of the 3.0 PHB which shows something similar.

You may enjoy this: It's a Two Pager on Attacks of Opportunity. Clear, concise examples.

 

[Spectator]

Just curious, but how do 2 peeps initiate combat (ie: strike w/in the 5 ft square) w/o initiating an AoO?
This harkens back to S4's question of the two combatants circling each other.

 

[rabindranath72]

He will get attacked in spaces 2 and 3, since he is moving within a threatened area (i.e. he first leaves sq.1 and then sq.2.)

Actually, he gets attacked in 1 as he leaves it, 2 as he leaves it, and 3 as he leaves it. Of course, the character in space 5 would have to have Combat Reflexes and a high DEX to pull that off.

He gets attacked in the square that he is leaving. You say above that he gets attacked in 2 as he leaves 1. This is incorrect. You've got to consider weapon reach.

1234
567
890

For example, if a character is in space 5 fighting a foe in space 2, and another foe enters the character's threatened area "above" space 3, takes a left turn, then moves out to space 4, this does provoke an Attack of Opportunity from the character at 5. But the character cannot reach 4 as his weapon reach is only 5'. He attacks the new foe in space 3 the moment before that foe leaves the space (as he leaves it).

I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing. From your previous post, I wasn't sure.

There is a nice example in the appendix to the 2nd printing of the 3.0 PHB which shows something similar.

You may enjoy this: It's a Two Pager on Attacks of Opportunity. Clear, concise examples.

Yes you are right I misplaced the numbers. Anyway he gets attacked two times when he stops in space 3 as from you original example.

Ah yes, that pdf is the same that appears in the appendix of the revised 3.0 PHB.

 

[rabindranath72]

Just curious, but how do 2 peeps initiate combat (ie: strike w/in the 5 ft square) w/o initiating an AoO?
This harkens back to S4's question of the two combatants circling each other.

If they don't have reach weapons, they just close and attack. Usually there is no need to move within a threatened area like in the example by S4 before. Unless you want to manoeuver for some other purpose, e.g. to grant a flank attack to a thief; but I usually don't use maps, and these few rules can be easily adjudicated even without a map.

 

[Supplement Four]

Anyway he gets attacked two times when he stops in space 3 as from you original example.

My original example has the foe moving out of space 3, too, so he provokes 3 AoOs. But, we're talking about the same thing.

 

[Supplement Four]

Usually there is no need to move within a threatened area like in the example by S4 before.

One of the reasons I use the Flanking Rules is to encourage battlefield movement. Flank and rear attacks give bonuses to your foes. Your shield only protects you from the front and the side you carry your shield. You have attack penalties to your flanks and rear. So, many times, you'll want to move to take best advantage of your facing and maybe think ahead to what will happen next round.

The Five Foot Step is the way to go for this type of movement as it doesn't provoke an AoO.

 

[rabindranath72]

Usually there is no need to move within a threatened area like in the example by S4 before.

One of the reasons I use the Flanking Rules is to encourage battlefield movement. Flank and rear attacks give bonuses to your foes. Your shield only protects you from the front and the side you carry your shield. You have attack penalties to your flanks and rear. So, many times, you'll want to move to take best advantage of your facing and maybe think ahead to what will happen next round.

The Five Foot Step is the way to go for this type of movement as it doesn't provoke an AoO.

I go abstract when deciding flanking. Essentially, the first three to attack they all cover the front/side (I assume the defender manouevers to avoid being circled.) The 4th and 5th adversary can flank, the last one can rear attack. This is essentially the AD&D system. If a Thief succeeds at moving silently or hiding, I may allow a flank or rear attack even without "filling" the front flanks.