Conan campaigns - advice sought

[Azgulor]

I'm an avid fan of the Conan RPG - I've purchased most of the books and continually find myself drawn back to them. But there's a problem:

Problem #1: I only get to actually participate (I'm the GM) in an RPG every 1 - 2 months. I was in the process of prepping my then-upcoming fantasy campaign when I purchased the Conan RPG. I ran a couple of one-off sessions and everyone liked it. However, the two sessions hardly amounted to a shake-down cruise.

Problem #2: I had abandoned D&D years ago (that's not the problem, it's coming...). The campaign I was prepping was a GURPS 4e fantasy campaign. My players and I like GURPS because of the character detail and the grittiness of combat. As a GM I love it because it's a true RPG tool-kit: I can tailor-make a campaign to my liking. However, with the constraints on my time these days, sometimes it's almost too open. I find myself spending more time on game/campaign design than on adventure/NPC design.

So my Conan book/rules begged to be tried, even though it brought me back to classes, levels, and d20 combat - although admittedly new and improved and eliminating much of what caused me to abandon D&D in the first place. I think my prep time would be considerably less if I switched to the Conan rules, but I'm not sure if Conan could support the campaign's style of play. Since my group meets so infrequently, I haven't been able to run additional one-offs or divert from the campaign to test things out to my liking. So I'm looking for some help from the Conan fans here who have either played the game extensively or are currently in a game/campaign.

Conan's combat rules go a long way to making things grittier. However, do fights usually go to the death (because their are no rules for specific wounds, crippling injuries, etc.) or does surrender to live to fight another day come into play? In other words, do the rules move Conan far enough away from the D&Dism of superhero invulnerability as PCs gain levels? ("I'm surrounded by 20 guardsmen? Bah, I attack!") In my GURPS campaign, an opponent surrenders due to a crippling wound as often as they are killed outright: sword arm broken, leg wound makes it impossible to stand, etc. I don't see that happening in Conan (or any d20 game).

Do high-level campaigns maintain the threat level of combat? In other words, do PCs still recognize that being outnumbered 2:1 is a fast way to die, or is it "Enter the fray b/c I know no one will hit me/no single blow can kill me"? (I know about the MDT, I'm just not sure if the saves are still difficult to make at higher levels.) This assumes opponents within 2-3 levels of the PCs - I expect them to be less threatened by a group of 1st level opponents.

Could I emulate the following using Conan's rules? I built an entire session around the fact that the PCs commander (NPC) had a wound become infected. They had no healers amongst them and had to force march through hostile territory with their commander on a stretcher in order to reach a monastery reknowned for its healers.

Essentially, I'm hoping that PC behavior will mirror what I see in my GURPS campaign: Heroic sword-n-sorcery action tempered by an awareness of the PCs mortality. Suspension of Disbelief has never been an issue and I adopted a Fate-Point-ish mechanic to protect the PCs from being totally at the mercy of the dice. I want to switch to Conan but don't want them reverting to D&D's Fantasy-Superhero mode. High adventure heroics is great, invulnerable supermen are boring.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Your feedback is appreciated.

Azgulor

 

[SALette]

I've run a few, very entertaining one-shots for Conan; some with premade characters, others with characters the players created beforehand.

The trick to running this game, in my opinion, is to avoid the culture of D&D.

It is not the rules per se, but rather the insistences on 'fair challenge' as the absolute norm, the 2 to 6 rooms full of distraction, each designed to sap 20 to 25% of total party strength, that undermine anything beyond that style of play.

The Conan combat rules are quite deadly, full stop. Six 2nd or 3rd level soldiers could kill a PC of even 10th to 12th level, especially given reach as a factor, combined with something simple as combat reflexes.

Hit points, as my players have surmised, are more a barometer of how much punishment you've taken, not an absolute indicator of life and death. I've one shotted the most capable character (for combat) with a minion in at least two of my games. Hell, most of my games, the players may even have themselves to fear as potential enemies.

All in good fun however.

For myself, this game fills the niche of 'heroic fantasy' that D&D could never fill. And as I play this game more, I am realising that it is the culture of D&D that makes the game what it is, not the actual rules. While arguements can be made for the rules re-inforcing this cultural idiom, and made to an extent, the Conan rules are brutal enough, when coupled with the culture of the Hyborean setting, to escape the palpible bile of the consensual fantasy universe.

My opinion, as always.
May your players enjoy their new game, by Mitra!

 

[VincentDarlage]

Conan's combat rules go a long way to making things grittier. However, do fights usually go to the death (because their are no rules for specific wounds, crippling injuries, etc.) or does surrender to live to fight another day come into play? In other words, do the rules move Conan far enough away from the D&Dism of superhero invulnerability as PCs gain levels? ("I'm surrounded by 20 guardsmen? Bah, I attack!") In my GURPS campaign, an opponent surrenders due to a crippling wound as often as they are killed outright: sword arm broken, leg wound makes it impossible to stand, etc. I don't see that happening in Conan (or any d20 game).

That seems to me to be two issues: 1) No, the game comes nowhere near the level of DnD superheroism for several reasons, such as virtually no magic items, a hit dice cap at 10th level, higher weapon damages, no clerics walking around with healing magic, armour that functions as damage reduction, and a lower massive damage threshold.

2) Although the core rules do not include a critical hit system, products such as Bastian Press's Torn Asunder work well with the system.

Do high-level campaigns maintain the threat level of combat? In other words, do PCs still recognize that being outnumbered 2:1 is a fast way to die, or is it "Enter the fray b/c I know no one will hit me/no single blow can kill me"? (I know about the MDT, I'm just not sure if the saves are still difficult to make at higher levels.) This assumes opponents within 2-3 levels of the PCs - I expect them to be less threatened by a group of 1st level opponents.

Yes. The multiple attacker rules aid in this considerably, as do other aspects of Conan combat.

Could I emulate the following using Conan's rules? I built an entire session around the fact that the PCs commander (NPC) had a wound become infected. They had no healers amongst them and had to force march through hostile territory with their commander on a stretcher in order to reach a monastery reknowned for its healers.

Yes. For example, Across the Thunder River includes rules for wounds becoming infected. Several of the diseases listed on page 27 have Injury as a disease risk. Aquilonia - Flower of the West has a similar set of rules and diseases.

 

[Azgulor]

Thank you both for the replies and info. They are much appreciated, especially the specific examples.

Guess, I may have to bump Across Thunder River higher on my "To Buy" list.

Thanks again!

 

[MightyCthulhu]

If I were you I would stick to GURPs since the mechanics seems to be exactly what you want. I would use GURPS for character design and combat, but use Mongoose's Sorcery system.

You could try to pick up GURPS Conan. The book is mostly genre/setting but does have some interesting rules additions. I think all of these rules have been incorporated into 4e, but it is still an interesting read. In general I greatly favor the Mongoose setting material myself.

 

[DasClay]

Grity gritty grittty Combat is conan bread and butter IMHO. I have a group of PCs that are 3rd lvl, and they love the cinema style battles I give them. a group of 5-7 PCs up against 15-20 bad guys... and Its not more than they can handle, they just play there PCs to there full potential. Yep my Guys have gelled as a adventuring group by 3rd...

But To run Conan the one thing I fould is this, Get D&D out of your head... IT has no place in this world. Stuff you would do in D&D will get you killed in Conan ( as a PC of course)

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

I had 5 1st level thieves taken down a heavily armed and armored 5th level soldier using the Multiple Opponents and Weapon Finesse (to get around the heavy armor DR) rules.

That would have never happened in D&D.

I also use a multiple attackers to 'aid' each other and pull down a single PC (grapple and pin rules), which makes their dex zero, giving them an effective DV of about 5.

With D&D, a heavily armored soldier is all but impossible for low level characters to hit, even if they were grappled and prone.

My PCs have a very healthy respect for many opponents, no matter what their supposed class or level.

 

[Raphael]

But To run Conan the one thing I fould is this, Get D&D out of your head... IT has no place in this world. Stuff you would do in D&D will get you killed in Conan ( as a PC of course)

Okay, maybe I've been playing D&D my own way for too long or I'm just a clueless lemming, but what specifically would get you killed?

That would have never happened in D&D.

Why?

D&D Superheroism

eh?

The trick to running this game, in my opinion, is to avoid the culture of D&D.
It is not the rules per se, but rather the insistences on 'fair challenge' as the absolute norm, the 2 to 6 rooms full of distraction, each designed to sap 20 to 25% of total party strength, that undermine anything beyond that style of play.

Okay. I think I see where you're going with this. And I agree that it probably is the D&D idiom of RPing rather than the rules. But can you flesh this out a little more?

What kind of attitude/mindset/style that is inherent to D&D (or perhaps the most common way it's played) is an anathema to Conan.

Can anyone put this D&D thing into more concrete terms?

Khristos Voskrese,
Raphael

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

That would have never happened in D&D.

Why?

A 5th level fighter in D&D with the equivalent armor of the 5th level fighter would have had an AC of 19 or 20. A first level thief has a base attack of +0, and if the feat choices and abilities were the same, the thieves would not have had weapon finesse (free in Conan with the right weapon) and a strength of 13 (+1 bonus). This would have given the thieves a total bonus to attack of +1 (two were able to flank to get an attack of +3, as the PC had his back to a wall). This only gave each thief a 5-10% (15-20% if you were the flanking thieves to hit the PC), while the fighter had a BA of +5, +3 from strength, +1 from weapon focus) giving him a +9 to hit an AC of 15 (+3 dex, +2 leather). The fighter hits 75% of the time.

In Conan, the PCs DV is 15 (+3 strength, +2 parry [don't flame me if the parry value is off as I am recalling the details while at work and no character sheet or rules in front of me]). The thieves have a base +3 to hit from being able to use their dex (finessing of course), plus the 2nd and 3rd thieves get a +4, +5 respectively (multiple opponents), and the 4th and 5th thieves get a +8, +9 respectively (multiple opponents and flanking).

I won't do the math, but the thieves have a better shot at hitting in Conan and hit harder (weapons and sneak attack do more damage). This particular battle, the 4th and 5th thieves wee able to completely bypass the DR of the heavy armor (due to finessing) and got to add the full extent of their sneak attack and base damage.

In Conan the PC doesn't lose every time, but in D&D its almost never. In Conan, my PC now respects any group of 5, even at 5th level (he spent a fate point), in D&D, that wouldn't be happening.

 

[Azgulor]

Thanks for the additional responses as well! Your comments and examples are most helpful. I recognized that I would be trading some granular "grittiness" on the combat side by switching to Conan from GURPS, however, I thought it would be worth it if I recouped some time for adventure and NPC design without sacrificing the style and fell of the campaign. Your responses have made me feel much better about making the switch without dissatisfying my players. (And I suspect they won't mind a slight bump in the "coolness" of their PCs!)

Thanks again.

Azgulor

 

[DasClay]

But To run Conan the one thing I fould is this, Get D&D out of your head... IT has no place in this world. Stuff you would do in D&D will get you killed in Conan ( as a PC of course)

Okay, maybe I've been playing D&D my own way for too long or I'm just a clueless lemming, but what specifically would get you killed?

I call it Respect for your encounter. See D&D is designed to be a fair fight, there are CRs that as a DM your suspose to use to gage the challange lvl of a monster or NPC you put your PCs up against. Show that too me in Conan? didnt think so! See in Conan you always have to respect your encounter, cause you never know what your up against. At least that how I run my games. I belive that there should be a random factor to encounters. Just like when you walk down the street, not everyone you meet will have the same living standards as you, or make the same amount of money.

in D&D a 2ndlvl PC no matter how well played, doesnt have a chance against a 5 lvl PC. And I think Hyborian Apeman sumed it up best...!

 

[Raphael]

I call it Respect for your encounter. See D&D is designed to be a fair fight, there are CRs that as a DM your suspose to use to gage the challange lvl of a monster or NPC you put your PCs up against. [snip]in D&D a 2ndlvl PC no matter how well played, doesnt have a chance against a 5 lvl PC. And I think Hyborian Apeman sumed it up best...!

Thanks for the response DasClay and Apeman. (In case you missed it in the other forum, love your avatar DasClay).
So is this a WoTC D&D thing? Or was this a problem people had with AD&D2nd Ed.? The group I played in always valued Roleplaying (tm) over what the rules said. If your 3rd lvl swashbuckler wanted to do some swinging from chandeliers and flipping through the air while fighting the 6HD monster, chances are the DM would let you--due to what we called "coolness factor" (re: cinematic style of play).

Interestingly, with the advent of D&D3.5e (or whatever permutation its on) the current DM has become a "book nazi." Thank Crom I don't play in that game. :roll:

Seems to me like its a D&D (whether 3rd 2nd or Expert rules) idiom of play reinforced by the rules.
We never abided by that idiom of play, so the rules never bothered us much.

Raphael

 

[Bregales]

I call it Respect for your encounter. See D&D is designed to be a fair fight, there are CRs that as a DM your suspose to use to gage the challange lvl of a monster or NPC you put your PCs up against. [snip]in D&D a 2ndlvl PC no matter how well played, doesnt have a chance against a 5 lvl PC. And I think Hyborian Apeman sumed it up best...!

Thanks for the response DasClay and Apeman. (In case you missed it in the other forum, love your avatar DasClay).
So is this a WoTC D&D thing? Or was this a problem people had with AD&D2nd Ed.? The group I played in always valued Roleplaying (tm) over what the rules said. If your 3rd lvl swashbuckler wanted to do some swinging from chandeliers and flipping through the air while fighting the 6HD monster, chances are the DM would let you--due to what we called "coolness factor" (re: cinematic style of play).

Interestingly, with the advent of D&D3.5e (or whatever permutation its on) the current DM has become a "book nazi." Thank Crom I don't play in that game. :roll:

Seems to me like its a D&D (whether 3rd 2nd or Expert rules) idiom of play reinforced by the rules.
We never abided by that idiom of play, so the rules never bothered us much.

Raphael

I'd say you're more lucky than most then. I am in a rules-lawyering group, and I have had to bite the nail and learn the rules, because I always favored cinematic feel over rules, but the players in New York City I've been around go by the book first and foremost. deedledee 3.x is a rules-heavy system, a play group will ignore what doesn't work for them and go with what does. I run both the Conan rpg and the King Arthur Pendragon rpg, and in both I encourage the players to roleplay first and foremost, but the constant questioning of rules forces me to try to keep abreast and obtain all the Mongoose releases and try to keep atop the rules, which while I hate that [necessary] aspect, I love creating the tales they engage in. 8)

 

[DasClay]

Thats the same thing I get from my players, and I quote" Well the Rules say" Ususally this is met with a evil eye, and showing of teeth, by the DM (me). and Me stating, I know what tHE @#$#@$$ Rules say, just play the game...LOL I know I know, sounds like Im over reacting, but when you cant even get thru a game of bones, because someone wants to rules lawyer, it can make for a long dreadful night as a DM.

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

As an actuary, I tend to like following the rules and sticking to them, while still desiring a great role-playing session.

To me, that is the beauty of Conan, the rules fit well to reinforce the feel of the world and encourage solid role-playing. It’s a win-win for those who prefer both the crunch and the fluff.

 

[DasClay]

Oh, Dont get me wrong friend, I like rules too. I just think that there more guild lines to fall back on than, to dictate the flow of the game. My goal is a fun time, player happiness, and enjoyment. DMing shouldnt be a work, but also fun. and im saying for me, dealing with rules can slow the game down when its in excess.

 

[Bregales]

Yeah, that sounds familiar. Each of our players GMs a different game. One of the players always shouts out "Okay, here comes the P[eeing, but more vulgar word] Contest" meaning everyone argues rules until either the GM says my way period! or an argument ensues.

I'm usually way too easy-going as a GM, and I usually give up way too easily when I'm a player. I think I'll just have to start killing them outright a couple times to lessen things. :twisted:

Bad habit of easygoing GM comes from West End's "Star Wars rpg" which goes by the idea that the PCs are heroes. I also think the group should have fun most of all, so when it's obvious they wanna argue rules, then I go along with it, before returning to my scheme - I mean, adventure.

 

[Bregales]

Oh, Dont get me wrong friend, I like rules too. I just think that there more guild lines to fall back on than, to dictate the flow of the game. My goal is a fun time, player happiness, and enjoyment. DMing shouldnt be a work, but also fun. and im saying for me, dealing with rules can slow the game down when its in excess.

I totally agree with you.

 

[DasClay]

Finally someone who feels my Pain

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

I can completely empathize with rules lawyers slowing down the game. For the most part, my PCs are pretty good at going with my decisions, and then approaching me at a break or after the session and discussing some possible rules changes.