Conan and Kids

[Oly]

Maybe both types of images are bad or maybe neither but the early sexualization of our kids is far more likely to have real-life consequences than the early violence desensitivity, though not so likely to make the news broadcasts.

I think the "sexualisation" aspect is the heart of the matter.

Speaking as an Englishman it seems that most European nations are able to view breasts without seeing them as sexual objects, so displays of them seem to be relatively OK. Americans seem unable to make that distinction, so we see things like the Janet Jackson incident.

Us English seem to be somewhere in the middle. On the one hand we've got topless models in our newspapers, on the other we're shocked when a day time TV show has a topless women during a talk about breast cancer. I think we're also somewhat stunned, and more than a bit envious, with the amount of casual nudity on mainland European TV.

So how do I feel about the nudity in the Conan book? Well frankly I find it a bit embarrassing. It's as if the book is trying too hard to be "grown up" and "mature".

Would the pictures stop me from letting a young child see it? No, probably not. There's so much nudity in classical, yet alone modern, culture that I don't see it as a big deal. A trip to pretty much any museum or art gallery will show similar images.

 

[Oly]

Maybe both types of images are bad or maybe neither but the early sexualization of our kids is far more likely to have real-life consequences than the early violence desensitivity, though not so likely to make the news broadcasts.

Wrong, because the sexualisation comes naturally in the teens (you cannot prevent it), but an early contact with violence may most likely make children violent. They learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

But do images of nudity even sexualise children?

Mainland Europe which seems, from a UK perspective, to have a fairly casual view of nudity has a low teen pregnancy rate.

The UK, which is more prudish over nudity and therefore has a lower amount of it on display, has a much higher birth rate than many other European nations.

Finally the US, which is seemingly more prudish than the UK, has an even higher rate than that of the UK.

So somehow Nudity <> Sexualisation

 

[Old Bear]

Wrong, because the sexualisation comes naturally in the teens (you cannot prevent it), but an early contact with violence may most likely make children violent. They learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

Not the only way, just the most effective and final one.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Oly, you are right. Ranzadule showed us a typical american prejudice, that nudity will sexualise. But that's really wrong. Nudity is natural and has nothing to do with sexualisation. The sexualisations happen because of this social taboo. If nudity were not tabooed and sexualisation would not happen because one is accustomed to it.

The pictures in the Conan RPG books are harmless. The same level of nudity is shown in several books othe the german RPG DSA (TDE) and these are rated "14 and above".

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Wrong, because the sexualisation comes naturally in the teens (you cannot prevent it), but an early contact with violence may most likely make children violent. They learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

Not the only way, just the most effective and final one.

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Concerning the Conan art, I never viewed it as "trying to be mature" but just trying to catch that pulp flavour of the world. Concerning the nude girls, I think it does a very good job. The blood-covered weapons on the other hand are just ugly and cheesy.

On the matter of nudity and sexualisation, I'm agreeing with Redbeard here. I know women with 11yo kids who have no problem sharing a bathroom; with the son brushing his teeth while mom gets out of the shower stark naked, looks for her clothes or trims her bikini zone. It's totally natural to them. And the boy isn't any more or less interested in girls than is typical for his age (as I think the Old Bear put it, getting interesting but still inferior to sports). [And might I add that this mom is no insult to the eye. ]

 

[Old Bear]

Wrong, because the sexualisation comes naturally in the teens (you cannot prevent it), but an early contact with violence may most likely make children violent. They learn that violence is the only way to solve problems.

Not the only way, just the most effective and final one.

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

And that doesn't change the facts of what I said one iota.

 

[Old Bear]

On the matter of nudity and sexualisation, I'm agreeing with Redbeard here. I know women with 11yo kids who have no problem sharing a bathroom; with the son brushing his teeth while mom gets out of the shower stark naked, looks for her clothes or trims her bikini zone. It's totally natural to them. And the boy isn't any more or less interested in girls than is typical for his age (as I think the Old Bear put it, getting interesting but still inferior to sports). [And might I add that this mom is no insult to the eye. ]

Absolutely. It's like that in our house, and to date my boy doesn't consider it anything other than perfectly normal. I was the same with my mother when I was a sprog, and I've always been extremely comfortable with nudity. :wink:

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Concerning the Conan art, I never viewed it as "trying to be mature" but just trying to catch that pulp flavour of the world. Concerning the nude girls, I think it does a very good job. The blood-covered weapons on the other hand are just ugly and cheesy.

I agree. The violence of some of those pictures are just too much to be good.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Not the only way, just the most effective and final one.

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

And that doesn't change the facts of what I said one iota.

It does. It makes violence the way to solve problems you don't want to teach your children. Or do really want that others solve their problems with you that way?

 

[Old Bear]

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

And that doesn't change the facts of what I said one iota.

It does. It makes violence the way to solve problems you don't want to teach your children. Or do really want that others solve their problems with you that way?

My son plays rugby, so he's perfectly familiar with violence. In fact he's looking over my shoulder right now smiling as I type. He knows full well when it is apropriate to use violence and when it isn't.

I'm a firm believer in never starting trouble but successfully concluding it. Having been a policeman in a previous life violence is an unavoidable job hazard. I'm also a realist. We are a violent species and that will never change.

Frankly if violence is not an option (albeit a final one) in your armoury you're just a victim.

 

[Hervé]

Violence in games has never been mature, as it is in movies. All this gory stuff is generally more appealling to teenagers than it is to adults. Same can be said about video games, where violence is generally the prime goal.

Kill everything to get more points. Mmmm... it looks like an old 1st ed D&D game! As for me I made a choice a long time ago between a mass of bleeding organs and a bare breasted chick! :wink:

 

[Old Bear]

Now this I totally agree with. Some of the best RPG sessions I've ever been involved in have not had a single scrap in them - which is some accomplish for the old Mongoose Hall crew, I can tell you!

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Violence in games has never been mature, as it is in movies. All this gory stuff is generally more appealling to teenagers than it is to adults.

I agree. Although violence is part of the game, you do not need complex tables which tell where the severed head of your enemy lands or that you slipped on his innards. :roll:

Same can be said about video games, where violence is generally the prime goal.

Kill everything to get more points. Mmmm... it looks like an old 1st ed D&D game!

Most video games remind me of old D&D. IN NWN2 for example it is much better to solve a quest with violence than peacefully. And IMHO that's really not good.

As for me I made a choice a long time ago between a mass of bleeding organs and a bare breasted chick! :wink:

Me too.
I remember an old DSA adventure, in which you could watch a striptease (with graphics! But the end could not be seen ) and you could complete it nearly without any violence.

I remember old DSA games in which we killed hordes of orcs. But we got older and found out that it is much more interesting to find other ways to solve problems in our games. Sometimes ways even our GM has not thought of. :twisted:

 

[Style]

Not the only way, just the most effective and final one.

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

And that doesn't change the facts of what I said one iota.

Clearly, the only way this debate can be resolved is by putting Old Bear verses Barbarossa in a pit match.

 

[Paladin]

And in most cases a criminal one.
And violence begets violence.

And that doesn't change the facts of what I said one iota.

Clearly, the only way this debate can be resolved is by putting Old Bear verses Barbarossa in a pit match.

$5 on the Bear. But $10 that he comes out with a broken bone or damaged organ.

 

[Hervé]

As my nickname is Great Bear, I'll bet on Old Bear! Bears have to support each other!

 

[lastbesthope]

$5 on the Bear. But $10 that he comes out with a broken bone or damaged organ.

My money's on OB, he has Ted Chang as his second and personal trainer :twisted:

LBH

 

[Old Bear]

Ted says his money is on the other guy as I'm crap.

 

[Vortigern]

I've come in before defending the nudity in conan books as something I consider to have been a part and parcel element of S&S, and thus something that I actually love about the line. I agree that it seems to be an attempt to capture the pulp feel, and that is something I favor. That said, I do tend to a much more conservative bent in my greater inclinations of television and society, etc. Especially when it comes to women and children.

I'd generally side with Paladin <or his wife, as the case may be> when it comes to nudity in the public realm. A basic example would be that as a frequent traveller I'd not bat an eye to look at/read myriad other RPG line's material while travelling/flying yet... Conan would generally be something I wouldn't ... and the cause would be the nudity, not the violence.

I'm always a bit amused when I see europeans so shocked and surprised at the relative/comparative modesty of americans. I for one am OK with being considered a 'prude' if that is what my modesty garners me.

If european television is that inundated with casual nudity I wouldn't be 'shocked' as much as I think mildly disgusted and disinclined to watch any more of it. I'm in favor of modesty and generally think it is beneficial to society.

What we are really dealing with on that account is a divide of cultural differences across the pond as it were. I just wish we could approach these things without trying to bash one another over the head over it.

Back to talking Conan.