Conan 321

[Supplement Four]

On another tangent, I really don't get why people care if PCs have high stats.

While I buy into both schools of thought (that PCs should be better than nobodies...that PCs should be the same as nobodies), what I run depends on the type of campaign I want to play.

I don't have a problem with super-heroic games. That's just not the type of Conan I'm going to run (although my average joes will probably turn into heroes...and the players will earn it, feeling good about their accomplishment knowing what they went through to get to be heroes).

But, I have to underline the sentence above. In the end, it's the GM who steers the game. And, if the PCs are normal joe's, the GM will keep that in mind when creating scenarios or altering published ones.

 

[rabindranath72]

A one or two point difference in stat scores does not make the game superheroic (4d6 drop lowest is statistically close to 3d6+2).
It is the level structure of the game which makes it super-heroic.
If you want a gritty game, limit advancement to 6th or 7th level. THAT makes a difference.

 

[Supplement Four]

If you want a gritty game, limit advancement to 6th or 7th level. THAT makes a difference.

I haven't decided how I'm going to limit advancement. But, I do love the control the Conan games gives to the GM in this department.



As to the "average joe" (or average peasant, I should say), figure his stats will be 10. A straight-average joe would be:

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 10
CHR 10

The average on 4D6, drop the lowest, is higher than 10. (The average of 3D6 is 10, but the "drop the lowest" part of 4D6 will up average scores.).

So, while the average for normal joes is 10 per stat, the average on 4D6 drop lowest is 13 per stat.

STR 13
DEX 13
CON 13
WIS 13
INT 13
CHR 13

Or, in other words, the average pesant suffers from no stat based negatives but also does not benefit from any stat based bonuses. The hero, though, on average, benefits from around a +1 modifiers per stat.

That means that heroes average 5% better than the normal person.



Starting out as a base, before stat increases at 4th, 6th, and so on...I think that turns out a pretty good 1st level hero.

...as long as the "arrange to taste" option is barred.



In my opinion, starting characters higher than that is allowing them to be too heroic.

 

[kintire]

In my opinion, starting characters higher than that is allowing them to be too heroic.

But a random roll system does start characters higher than that. Worse, it starts only some characters higher than that, others at about this level, and some lower than your average peasant.

 

[Supplement Four]

But a random roll system does start characters higher than that. Worse, it starts only some characters higher than that, others at about this level, and some lower than your average peasant.

That's right...some stats will be higher. Some will be lower. The mean will be 13.

That's the spice of life.

It seems to me that some Conan players think it's a sin if one of the PCs has a stat that has a negative modifier (9 or below).

That's not a bad thing. Everybody doesn't have to be a superhero in every area covered by every stat.

If you've got a group of 1st level PCs, and every stat is at least 10 or better, I'd say group is truly "special".

Unbelieveably special.

Non-realisticly special.

The strong but believeable Conan is gone, only to be replaced by the two dimensional, infalible, characture that is Wulfgar from the Ice Wind Dale trilogy.

I prefer a touch of realism in my gritty, dark Conan stories.

 

[flatscan]

The strong but believeable Conan is gone, only to be replaced by the two dimensional, infalible, characture that is Wulfgar from the Ice Wind Dale trilogy.

I prefer a touch of realism in my gritty, dark Conan stories.

Don't know where you got your stats for Conan from, but the MGP Conan doesn't have any negative stats either. I think this is the reason a lot of people that play the game on this board don't get why you're doing what you're doing. I'd say for most people that play this game, Conan is the character that inspired us to want to play. The players want to play a character that's as bad@ss as Conan in the Sword & Sorcery genre, populated by larger than life heroes and villains, like the one's Howard created when he invented the genre.

You seem to want to bring more Lovecraft-ian type heroes into the mix. People who are mostly average as opposed to larger than life. This would make for a melding of genres and could be a fun and interesting game, but I'd leave the average joe to Call of Cthulhu myself. To each his own.

Also, impressive stats do not make a character infallible. The PCs in my game make errors in judgement and tactics, despite their "unrealistic" stats. They also have a back-story, history, and are interesting characters. It is a bit insulting to the players on this board that you insinuate we don't have interesting PCs in our games because we followed the RAW character generation.

You've stated before that you think Mongoose's rules are brilliant, but your actions amend that to say "brilliant with my changes." :roll:

 

[Supplement Four]

I think this is the reason a lot of people that play the game on this board don't get why you're doing what you're doing. I'd say for most people that play this game, Conan is the character that inspired us to want to play. The players want to play a character that's as bad@ss as Conan in the Sword & Sorcery genre, populated by larger than life heroes and villains, like the one's Howard created when he invented the genre.

Conan, to me, is the epitome of a hero in the Hyborian Age. He's THE Hero.

When characters start out in Star Wars, they can't whip Darth Vader's arse. And, characters who start out in the Hyborian Age shouldn't be able to whip Conan's butt at similiar level either.

Conan is what all aspire to. He's the hero.

The players are trying to become that (and just may do it one day).

I completely understand you wanting to play a character as strong and powerful as Conan. But, too many people like that leaves the universe in an unbelieveable state.

I prefer to go the Star Wars route, where Conan is the ideal, and the players start and try to attain that status.

Also, impressive stats do not make a character infallible. The PCs in my game make errors in judgement and tactics, despite their "unrealistic" stats.

As I said, the average dude in this game has Stat 10.

The average hero, starting out, should be around 13.

That still makes him a pretty outstanding hero when compared with average folk.

You've stated before that you think Mongoose's rules are brilliant, but your actions amend that to say "brilliant with my changes." :roll:

Just for the record, I think the Mongoose's rules are brilliant, from the book, without changes (well, the Fate Point rule where you write down stuff is silly, but we'll give them "one" in a book over 500 pages).

I'd happily play in a game run by a GM who ran the game straight out of the book.

I've made a few tweaks--and they're very minor tweaks at that. You seem to think they're system-changing tweaks.

They're not.

And, the game system works well with or without them.

 

[flatscan]

When characters start out in Star Wars, they can't whip Darth Vader's arse. And, characters who start out in the Hyborian Age shouldn't be able to whip Conan's butt at similiar level either.

You miss my point. I was talking specifically about Attributes. Look at Conan's stats at 1st level. The RAW make characters with comparable stats. And if they went toe to toe with Conan at 1st level (PCs and Conan are 1st level), why SHOULDN'T they be able to best him? Because he's the hero? Aren't the PCs in an RPG the heroes? If not, why play?

I completely understand you wanting to play a character as strong and powerful as Conan. But, too many people like that leaves the universe in an unbelieveable state.

A larger than life state, or an Age undreamed of sure. Just like REH wrote it. Every one of Howard's characters were larger than life. Conan, Thoth-Amon, Xaltulton, Valeria, Belit, etc. They were all bad@sses in their own right. I won't deny my players the opportunity to join their ranks. Conan started off with killer stats at 1st level, this game was designed for the PCs to have killer stats from 1st to 20th level. Take a look at any of the NPCs MGP has provided in their supplements, even the thugs in the main book bestiary, THAT'S what your PCs will be up against. You're ham-stringing your PCs, and you won't know by how much until the first great sword comes down on one of them.

 

[Supplement Four]

You miss my point. I was talking specifically about Attributes. Look at Conan's stats at 1st level. The RAW make characters with comparable stats. And if they went toe to toe with Conan at 1st level (PCs and Conan are 1st level), why SHOULDN'T they be able to best him? Because he's the hero? Aren't the PCs in an RPG the heroes? If not, why play?

I just told you why not. Conan is the epitome of the hero. He is THE HERO of the Hyborian Age. He's the Cimmerian barbarian that became a king.

He's Darth Vader. He larger-than-life. He's unique.

And, if the characters aren't in awe of him too, then there's a problem.

Different strokes and play styles, I guess.

Conan started off with killer stats at 1st level, this game was designed for the PCs to have killer stats from 1st to 20th level.

Actually, it wasn't.

4D6, drop lowest, without assignment, and 4D6, drop lowest, with assignment is the standard character generation method.

Heroic and Point-Buy generation are variant methods.

Obviously, either of the standard chargen methods are going to turn out lower statted 1st level characters than the heroic method does.

You're ham-stringing your PCs, and you won't know by how much until the first great sword comes down on one of them.

A man, with a sword in his hand, trying to take your life, will be a challenge--something to consider with mortal intentsity.

More than one man, with swords, wanting to take your life, might be something you'll want to walk away from rather than fight.

Death and combat will be "scary" in my game.

There is no hamstringing going on here. It's all by design.

And...it's pretty much by-the-book, btw. There won't be a lot of difference in my game and using one of the standard chargen methods.

What I'm not using is the variant heroic method--which is not really RAW, is it?

 

[flatscan]

What I'm not using is the variant heroic method--which is not really RAW, is it?

Yes, it is. It's in the book you own and are planning on running from. I wasn't talking about Point Buy, never brought it up.

4D6, drop lowest, without assignment, and 4D6, drop lowest, with assignment is the standard character generation method.

4d6 drop lowest with assignment is RAW, 4d6 drop lowest without assignment is your restriction.

Death and combat will be "scary" in my game.

It's already scary with the RAW.

Different strokes indeed.

 

[Supplement Four]

Yes, it is. It's in the book you own and are planning on running from.

Heroic character generation is a variant rule.

That's the same as saying it's an optional rule.

Note that the other two chargen methods are described as the standard chargen methods. "Standard" means the one the writers intended gamers to use.

The variants are there for those with other tastes.

4d6 drop lowest with assignment is RAW, 4d6 drop lowest without assignment is your restriction.

Nope. There are two standard chargen methods reported in the book.

The first is 4D6, drop lowest, without assignment.

The second is 4D6, drop lowest, with assignment.

It's been a while since you've read the official rules, huh?

 

[flatscan]

Ability Scores
In Conan the Roleplaying Game, abilities determine the physical and mental characteristics of your character. Any of the methods below may be used to generate characters. Players and Games Masters should agree beforehand on which method is to be used for all characters.

Standard Generation Method: To generate a set of ability scores for a character, roll 4d6 and discard the die with the lowest face value. This will create a score between 3 (all four dice rolling ones) and 18 (three of the four dice coming up as sixes). Being able to remove the lowest number inclines the average value of each score and tends to create characters with higher than average abilities. Repeat this procedure five times. Once you have generated six values in this way, either assign them in the order rolled to the six corresponding ability scores or place them in any order desired until all six numbers have been used.

Heroic Character Generation: This variant creates heroes with high scores to simulate their position as exceptions to both the laws of nature and common humanity. While there is still some room for low scores in this method, each character created with it will generally have at least one very high ability and potentially more. Ability scores start at a value of 8 and get a bonus equal to 1d10, rolled separately for each statistic. After generation, the values can be moved between the different categories. This method is very flexible but it can result in more powerful characters than any other generation variant, because characters cannot start with any ability penalties greater than -1.

Both from the book. Both, RAW thusly. But now we're just debating semantics. I was wrong about the straight roll and assign, that is in the book. Congrats. I use the Heroic method, because I want to play in the larger than life Hyborian Age. You do not. Have fun.

 

[Supplement Four]

@Flatscan

From page 9, Conan 2E, in the standard Generation Method paragraph: "Once six values have been generated in this way, either assign them in the order rolled to the six corresponding ability scores or place them in any order desired until all six numbers have been used."



Note the with arrangement/without arrangement instructions. Both are standard with the game, as written.

That section goes on to say, "...tends to create characters with higher than average abilities."

Which, in my opinion, is where you want your heroes for a fantasy game to start. Heroic Chargen is too much.





Also note what the book says about Heroic Character Generation: This variant creates heroes with high scores to simulate the characters' positions as exceptions to both the laws of nature and common humanity.

Obviously, this is the method suggested if you want to use superheroes, that are more powerful than the game was designed to accomdate.

In my opinion, heroic generation is for munchkin gamers.



EDIT: This is not a response to your post directly above. It looks as if we were both typing at the same time, but you beat me to the "send" button.

 

[flatscan]

Also note what the book says about Heroic Character Generation: This variant creates heroes with high scores to simulate the characters' positions as exceptions to both the laws of nature and common humanity.

Obviously, this is the method suggested if you want to use superheroes, that are more powerful than the game was designed to accomdate.

In my opinion, heroic generation is for munchkin gamers.

Bull. The game works perfectly well with the variant rule. Anyhow, run your game the way you want. Have fun. You've insulted me and mine enough for today, so I'm out.

 

[Supplement Four]

Bull. The game works perfectly well with the variant rule.

From the Wiktionary: Grognard - A longtime wargamer, particularly one concerned with game mechanics, historical accuracy and realism.

I am concerned with accurate game mechanics (which is why I think the Conan game is a brilliant adaptation of d20) and realism (within the realm of the Hyborian Age).

So, yes, I am a grognard.

And, it's not a bad word, btw.



Munchkins, on the other hand, (according to this web site: http://www.srcf.ucam.org/tt/society/glossary.html) are gamers that are more interested in personal power than roleplay - the word comes from a description of the behaviour of 12-year-old D&D players. Specific exanples include vastly optimising a charactersheet to create unrealistic characters, and using metagaming to figure out aspects of plot.

So...since the official rule book, itself, states that Heroic Character Generation "creates heroes with high scores to simulate the characters' positions as exceptions to both the laws of nature and common humanity", and that this method "can result in more powerful characters than any other generation variant". I think it's fair to say it's a variant for munchkin gamers (those who want to min/max and have incredibly statted heroes).

 

[Supplement Four]

Bull. The game works perfectly well with the variant rule. Anyhow, run your game the way you want. Have fun. You've insulted me and mine enough for today, so I'm out.

I see you edited your post to remove the "piss off grognard" part.

I don't know if it will help, but I didn't mean to insult you. I do think the Heroic Generation is for munchkin gamers, but I didn't mean that as a direct insult towards you.

 

[cbrunish]

I would seem better to let the players design the character that they want to play. True it is great test of a gamer to play a character that may not be exceptional but it is more enjoyable to play what you envisioned when you started your character.

On one note, CHA is much more import in Conan than in D&D. In my campain I have a Zingarian Pirate character with a high CHA and Improved Feint. Because of this he strikes flatfooted every round and does as much or more damage than the Barbarian with a two-handed sword attacking twice. Also if you have a Noble character, then CHA would be his lifeblood!

 

[Supplement Four]

I would seem better to let the players design the character that they want to play. True it is great test of a gamer to play a character that may not be exceptional but it is more enjoyable to play what you envisioned when you started your character.

I've mentioned this before, but it's been my experience in my 20+ years of gaming with several different gamers over the years that self designed characters--where the player has total control--actually turn out less interesting characters than if there are some constraints on the creation.

When the player has total control, we get a character that is "perfect" for whatever role he is meant to play (or, as close to mechanically perfect at the player can get him). His stats are optimized for his class, and his background, although maybe somewhat interesting, usually turns out to be fairly generic.

If you allow the player to create with a few "givens", then I notice their creativity really takes off. They've got to figure out "why" a certain thing happened--and this usually leads to some incredibly interesting characters with amazing backgrounds.

When you read a book, it's the flawed characters that are typically more interesting. Even Conan, who has "it" in the physical department, has major flaws in Howard's typical fish-out-of-water stories. Conan is guided by his barbarian code while others are not. Conan is limited by his fear of magic and baffled by civilization--all of these come into play to "limit" Conan and make him interesting.

The best character generation system I've ever seen is the one used for Classic Traveller. If you use the system "right", you meta-game a character for several years, actually rolling up his background.

It takes on the illusion of real life because some choices are made by the character (the players choice of which column of skills to roll upon) while life may take a turn the character didn't expect (the random roll of the dice).

The Classic Traveller system turns out more true "characters" than anything I've ever seen. It's a springboard for creativity. And, players may not get exactly the character they were looking to have when they started chargen, but what they got has so much more "life" and "freshness" associated with it that I've always found players are glad they went that route of chargen (even if they were reluctant at first).

Now, Conan is not as restrictive. A player can choose his class. In my campaign, I'm restricting that to Commoner, Borderer, Soldier, or Thief, right now. But, I plan to allow other types of multiclassing later in the campaign.

And, I'm allowing my players to play any of those four classes they want.

On one note, CHA is much more import in Conan than in D&D. In my campain I have a Zingarian Pirate character with a high CHA and Improved Feint. Because of this he strikes flatfooted every round and does as much or more damage than the Barbarian with a two-handed sword attacking twice. Also if you have a Noble character, then CHA would be his lifeblood!

CHA can be important, no doubt. My point is that CHA, in this game, especially with the Soldier class, is usually not as important as the other stats.

When you're arranging stats, you've got to prioritize. STR, DEX, and CON are obvioulsy more important to a Soldier character than CHR. Then, INT gives you more skills.

That takes it down (usually) to either WIS or CHA. And, since WIS is used for a Save, where as CHA is only used for a few skills, CHA typically becomes the placement of the lowest stat the Soldier throws.

Conan 321 is designed to allow the players some choice but also preclude the lowest roll always being dumped in the same stat.

 

[Krushnak]

So...since the official rule book, itself, states that Heroic Character Generation "creates heroes with high scores to simulate the characters' positions as exceptions to both the laws of nature and common humanity", and that this method "can result in more powerful characters than any other generation variant". I think it's fair to say it's a variant for munchkin gamers (those who want to min/max and have incredibly statted heroes).

Forgive us then wanting to play Conan like characters in a Conan rpg game. Any body worth mentioning in the Conan stories is well above the average dirt grubbing peasant that its pretty obvious that the heroic generation method is intended to create something on par with them.

 

[Hervé]

Why don't you just preroll characters for your players? With all the restrictions you're using, it will save them (and us! :wink: )a lot of time. Put your stats like this, choose this class and not this one, and so on...
We knew of a guy like this in our gaming group.
We don't play with him anymore.