Conan 321

[Supplement Four]

In another thread, we discussed the "arrange-to-taste" method of allowing a player to roll his stats and then use the throws where ever he likes.

I dislike this because it usually creates a "dump stat". In this game, it's CHR that is usually the dump stat (the stat that gets the lowest throw, making it likely that most player characters have low Charisma).

Others argue that the dump stat is a necessary evil because it allows for "heroic" characters for this heroric fantasy game.

Another idea popped up in the discussion, with a poster saying that the way to avoid a dump stat is to make all stats equally important to the players.

While this is a true statement, not all stats are equally important to the vast majority of players playing the Conan rpg.

What I've done is combined the ideas and come up with a system that allows for "limited arrange-to-taste" statting. The idea is to group equally important stats together, allowing swapping just among those in the group.

This compromise should serve both those, like me, who despise the dump stat, and those who (also like me) think that players should have some input into statting their characters in this heroic fantasy universe.

Here's how it works.

(Pretty simple.)







Conan 321

1. Have the player roll six stats, rolling, in order, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHR. Each roll is a standard 4D6, drop the lowest D6, and sum stat roll.

2. Players may then re-arrange STR, DEX, or CON rolls in any order they wish (but, the throw for, say, STR, cannot be placed to represent the INT stat).

3. Players may then swap INT and WIS throws, if they wish.

4. CHR is never changed during character creation. The throw rolled is what the character uses.



Using this method of "arrange-to-taste", one will avoid the dump stat. Some PCs will actually have high CHRs! And, players still maintain some level of control over their stats.

Thoughts?

 

[LilithsThrall]

In another thread, we discussed the "arrange-to-taste" method of allowing a player to roll his stats and then use the throws where ever he likes.

I dislike this because it usually creates a "dump stat". In this game, it's CHR that is usually the dump stat (the stat that gets the lowest throw, making it likely that most player characters have low Charisma).

Others argue that the dump stat is a necessary evil because it allows for "heroic" characters for this heroric fantasy game.

Another idea popped up in the discussion, with a poster saying that the way to avoid a dump stat is to make all stats equally important to the players.

While this is a true statement, not all stats are equally important to the vast majority of players playing the Conan rpg.

What I've done is combined the ideas and come up with a system that allows for "limited arrange-to-taste" statting. The idea is to group equally important stats together, allowing swapping just among those in the group.

This compromise should serve both those, like me, who despise the dump stat, and those who (also like me) think that players should have some input into statting their characters in this heroic fantasy universe.

Here's how it works.

(Pretty simple.)







Conan 321

1. Have the player roll six stats, rolling, in order, STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHR. Each roll is a standard 4D6, drop the lowest D6, and sum stat roll.

2. Players may then re-arrange STR, DEX, or CON rolls in any order they wish (but, the throw for, say, STR, cannot be placed to represent the INT stat).

3. Players may then swap INT and WIS throws, if they wish.

4. CHR is never changed during character creation. The throw rolled is what the character uses.



Using this method of "arrange-to-taste", one will avoid the dump stat. Some PCs will actually have high CHRs! And, players still maintain some level of control over their stats.

Thoughts?

That seems a bit unfair. I mean, if I want to create a character with a high CHA (I mean, Intimidate and Bluff are both great skills - add in feats like Striking Cobra, Intricate Swordplay, Steely Gaze and Menacing Aura, etc. and they get even better), you won't let me arrange stats to get a higher CHA?

 

[Supplement Four]

That seems a bit unfair. I mean, if I want to create a character with a high CHA (I mean, Intimidate and Bluff are both great skills - add in feats like Striking Cobra, Intricate Swordplay, Steely Gaze and Menacing Aura, etc. and they get even better), you won't let me arrange stats to get a higher CHA?

I might work with a player who wanted to do this. We're upping CHA instead of using it as a dump stat.

Have you suggestions on a better method of arrangement that does not allow dump stats?



Here's a better rule, then, for this type of thing...



Conan 321 (Optional)

The standard 321 groupings are STR/DEX/CON, then INT/WIS, then CHR. Players are allowed to arrange stats to taste, but only within the group.

Now, let's say a player like the one above comes along--someone who wants to max out CHR.

No problem. Use the same structure, but allow the player to decide which stats go into which groups.

This player above may choose:

Group 1 = INT/WIS/CHR
Group 2 = CON/DEX
Group 3 = STR

So...now, intead of pre-defined groupings, the player defines the groups before he rolls. Then, when he arranges stats to his taste, he must stick with the groups he designed.



Thank you for your input! I think you just made my rule better!

 

[Supplement Four]

Yeah...I think this will work nicely.

Step 1: Player decides the groups. A group of 3 stats. A group of 2 stats. And a group of a single stat.

Step 2: A value is thrown for each stat, throwing 4D6 and keeping the best 3D6 results.

Step 3: The player may swap values for stats as long as the swapping takes place within the same group.







Example of Conan 321...

Player wants to play a Soldier character, but he also wants the character to use a lot of skills. He knows the character won't be a finesse fighter and will probably use Parry over Dodge.

So, the player decides on his stat groupings, coming up with this mix:

Group 1 - STR/CON/INT

Group 2 - DEX/WIS

Group 3 - CHR



Next, the character throws values for each stat, throwing 4D6 and dropping the lowest die in each throw.

STR 16
CON 16
INT 12

DEX 13
WIS 14

CHR 8

Now, with the rolls made , the player can arrange stats within the group, so our starting character ends up looking like this.

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 13
CHR 8

It's funny (because I rolled real dice when writing this example) that CHR is still the lowest stat for this character--but that's the breaks of the die throws!

Yes, I like this system. I think it will work nicely. It still allows arranging to taste without creating a dump stat.

And that was the goal--to eliminate the dump stat.

 

[Hervé]

You could also just let the players build the character they want using the real rules. If they tend to dump CHR a bit too much, just make your campaign rely a bit more on this stat, calling for CHR checks or CHR based Skills checks a bit more than usual. You can't blame your players for not using a stat if it has no impact on your campaign! Use CHR in your game and your players will go for a high score in that stat. Of course, if Dungeon Bashing is all that they want, you could also completely remove CHR from your game, ending the problem (or maybe use it as a secondary stat, as was Comeliness in Unearthed Arcana 1st Ed).
Anyway, I think being too much restrictive on character creation is a bad thing; as most players don't like too much being railroaded. I just hate myself when a GM tells me how I should build my character (as long as I remain in the mood of the campaign, of course). I'd rather play a pre rolled one in that case. Let the players do what they want. Let them know that CHR will as important as any other stat. Crush them in the game if didn't follow your advice. :twisted:

 

[LilithsThrall]

Let me say before posting my reply that I think Herve nailed the bullseye. The only reason CHA tends to be a dump stat is that CHA tends not to be used and it isn't getting used because of how the GM runs the game.

Having said that, I love to tinker - for the mental exercise if for no other reason.
If you gave me your rules, I'd throw my most important stat and my least important stat into the group of three. Think about it and you'll quickly figure out why.

 

[Paladin]

Let them roll two ways. EIther the 4D6 and keep them as is or 3D6 but rearrange as fitting. Or go to a flat point total with a random roll for the last portion.

 

[Style]

Let them roll two ways. EIther the 4D6 and keep them as is or 3D6 but rearrange as fitting. Or go to a flat point total with a random roll for the last portion.

In my d20 days, I gave the option of 4d6 and arrange the way you like, or 5d6 (drop the lowest 2) and take them as they fall. I had only one player ever take the 5d6 option. His stats blew everyone else's out of the water, yet no one else would even attempt 5d6. Players like control. They dislike random.

 

[Supplement Four]

You can't blame your players for not using a stat if it has no impact on your campaign!

I'm not blaming them! Heck, they're just building their characters the best they can. I'd do the same thing in their shoes.

It's not their fault CHR is not as useful as other stats for most types of characters in this game.

I think the optional rule above (where the players decides on the groups before throwing) addresses all issues. It avoids the dump stat and still alows limited arrange-to-taste.

So, we get our heroic characters. The players can arrange stats within limits. And, CHR isn't always the lowest score on everybody's character sheet.

That simple rule, and I don't have to bogusly inflate the use of CHR (that may cause complaints and seem to come from left field during the game).

 

[maladaar]

We use a point-buy.

This way the player creates exactly the type of character that they want.

As far as the low Cha...I allow the player to roleplay a conversation with and NPC and then have a secret Cha roll or (Diplomacy, Gather Info, etc..) to see how effective the player really was.

This way the player will be hampered by the low Stat.

 

[Supplement Four]

If you gave me your rules, I'd throw my most important stat and my least important stat into the group of three. Think about it and you'll quickly figure out why.

I'd have no problem with that.

I'll use the acutal throws I wrote above. Let's say your favorite stat is STR and your least important is CHR. So, you make your pre-throw groupings, and they look like this:

Group 1 - STR, DEX, CHR

Group 2 - CON, INT

Group 3 - WIS

Using the acutal dice throws above, your pre-arrange character would look like this.

STR 16
DEX 16
CHR 12

CON 13
INT 14

WIS 8

And, after you arrange within the groups, you'd maybe only make one change, swapping INT for CON.

And, so, your beginning character would look like this.

STR 16
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 8
CHR 12

With the normal system, since CHR is your least important stat, that 8 roll would have been assigned to CHR. This system precludes CHR being the dump stat (as it was designed to do).

And, it still affords arranging to taste, so a player can focus on getting high throws on his favorite stats (put at least two of your favorite stats in Group 1 because you are most likely to roll highest in that group).

So...I'd have no problem at all with you putting your most important and least important stat into Group 1.

 

[Supplement Four]

Let them roll two ways. EIther the 4D6 and keep them as is or 3D6 but rearrange as fitting. Or go to a flat point total with a random roll for the last portion.

Lol! :shock: That was my first suggestion in the other thread.

I was convinced, though, that it's not a good option. Why? Because any player who went the 3D6 route would have lower stats and still have a dump stat. The only reason to use that option is to encourage players to use the 4D6 no-arrange method.

I think the revised Conan 123 method works best, as it allows 4D6 stats, limited arrange to taste, and no dump stat.

 

[Supplement Four]

We use a point-buy.

This way the player creates exactly the type of character that they want.

I really despise point-buy. I find it encourages generic characters. Always the super strong fighter, the super smart mage, the super deft thief..etc.

Not as much "character" in those characters, imo.

But, it's different strokes for different folks. Play what makes your game fun, I always say.

Point-buy wouldn't be fun in my game. But, like taste in movies and music, point-buy is the cat's meow to some groups. I do understand that.

 

[DigitalMage]

I really despise point-buy. I find it encourages generic characters. Always the super strong fighter, the super smart mage, the super deft thief..etc.

I despise random rolling - so it just shows that its good to have both methods!

 

[maladaar]

You would be surprised with the guys that I play with then.

Several of the guys go with middle of the road characters instead of the Meat-Tank or Think-Tank.

When I play I prefer a character that is balanced (ie 10s to 14s) across the board.

I went to the point-buy when I had a player roll in front of me an outrageous character (stats were somthing like 18, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14). He was playing a barbarian and most of the other character has "normal" stats.

This caused its own inherent problems.

Situations that were difficult for the normal PCs were easy for the barbarian.

and

Situations that were difficult for the barbarian was impossible for the rest of the group.

 

[rje]

Hey, for those worried about CHR being *the* dump stat, how about a simple house rule that says CHR can only be swapped upwards?

 

[Supplement Four]

Hey, for those worried about CHR being *the* dump stat, how about a simple house rule that says CHR can only be swapped upwards?

Definitely simple. I did think about this before. But, I decided in favor of the Conan 321 system because 321 allow the player to decide which stats can be swapped (by his grouping choices), and CHR is not singled out as an "only upwards" stat (which, really isn't fair, either).

Under 321, the player chooses where his swapping limitations are, and CHR can still be swapped for a lower score if CHR isn't in the group by itself.

So, I think 321 is more flexible and player-friendly than the blanket "up-only" blanket rule.

 

[Style]

I really despise point-buy. I find it encourages generic characters. Always the super strong fighter, the super smart mage, the super deft thief..etc.

I too despise point buy, but at the same time I don't like the unbalance that random characters can create. The answer? Fair Random Attributes (or Random Point Buy):

http://jon.thompsonstaggs.com/OldExternalLinks/FairRandomAttributes.html

 

[Ichabod]

Several things:

a. The dump stat for a character depends upon what sort of character you are playing (in addition to what sort of campaign). A scholar is certainly not going to dump on Cha if making magic attack roles. Non-sorcerer party spokesperson isn't going to dump on Cha either. And, so forth.

b. We're idiots, but out of 5 PCs in our main group, only one started with a Cha below 16. Interestingly enough, due to our social prowess, we avoid lots of fights and the campaign has weaved itself around this to where diplomacy is our primary method of success.

c. We use the heroic attribute system of 8+d10, which I highly recommend over 4d6 as I see no reason why PCs should not be far superior to mundanes.

d. If you wanted to use d6s, could go the old 4d6, 5d6, 6d6, 7d6, 8d6, 9d6 method or whatever floats your boat.

e. I hate point buy in the D&D systems as it tends to produce highly predictable distributions. I also hate random - I'm into fair. We have the same problem Maladaar had where one character's stats are ridiculously better than the rest of the party. We keep talking about letting him die, but we just keep saving him so that we can be his spearchuckers/diplomats. In systems where attributes are in a more relatable spectrum (1-5 for normals), then I'm fine with point buy. I just can't relate to D&Desque attributes in terms of where heroes should fall.

 

[Supplement Four]

A scholar is certainly not going to dump on Cha if making magic attack roles.

But, it doesn't bother you that most of the Soldiers out there would have low CHA?

We have the same problem Maladaar had where one character's stats are ridiculously better than the rest of the party.

Different strokes for different folks. I had this happen in my last Traveller game. The player felt like he won the lottery. And, some of the campaign centered around this guy.

It was definitely a plus having him in the game, for all concerned.

The rare times something like this happens, I say make the most out of it and make that player feel "special".

The other players had the same shot to roll as this guy did.