combating spirits

[papakee]

I just can't seem to get a good feeling about the spirit combat. I get spirit vs spirit but am having trouble with the others. Would someone be kind enough to give an 1 combat action example for the following combatants vs. a spirit (disease spirit for example):

a. someone with an enchanted weapon say bladesharp
b. a spell caster
c. someone that can neither cast spells or has an enchanted weapon

Would one assume that the corpreal creature would have no idea the spirit is there until an attack or possession attempt is made? Would one assume the spirit would choose possession as its primary attack?

An example would help me out greatly, as I 'think' I know how it should work but am not confident.

 

[gamesmeister]

a) PC with Bladesharp 2 cast on an ordinary bastard sword attacks a spirit

When trying to hit the spirit he suffers a -30% penalty (-40% invisibility, +10% Bladesharp). If he hits, he will do 2 points of damage to the spirit (the damage from the unenchanted sword does no damage).

b) PC casts Disruption against a spirit. The spell automatically fails, as only spells specifically designed to target INT, POW, or CHA can hurt it, or else those that specifically state they can hurt spirits, such as Spirit Bane.

c) PC sticks his head between his legs and....well, you get the picture

There are a few ways you might be aware of the spirit, such as having cast Soul Sight but yes, the usual way to learn there is a spirit about is when it attacks you.

Possession is one possibility, but not necessarily the first choice...that depends on the type of spirit. A disease spirit would certainly makes possession it's primary goal, but a wraith doesn't want to possess someone and be carried around God knows where...it wants to rip that someone to shreds in a frenzy of hatred!

 

[soltakss]

gamesmeister's post below pretty much wipes this out completely but I'll leave it in to show how wrong I can be.

I just can't seem to get a good feeling about the spirit combat. I get spirit vs spirit but am having trouble with the others. Would someone be kind enough to give an 1 combat action example for the following combatants vs. a spirit (disease spirit for example):

a. someone with an enchanted weapon say bladesharp
b. a spell caster
c. someone that can neither cast spells or has an enchanted weapon

Would one assume that the corpreal creature would have no idea the spirit is there until an attack or possession attempt is made? Would one assume the spirit would choose possession as its primary attack?

An example would help me out greatly, as I 'think' I know how it should work but am not confident.

OK, according to the rules in RQ Companion, we have ....

Disease spirit of bog-standard average stats of INT 7 POW 16 CHA 10, Spectral Claw 50%(1D2), Dodge 40%, Persistence 50%.

It attacks an adventurer (Sword 50%, Dodge 40%, Persistence 50%).

If the adventurer has no magic at all, then he cannot hurt the disease spirit and his only option is to dodge and run away.

Spirit attacks, he dodges at -40% because the spirit is invisible, as per normal combat rules.

If the spirit tries to posses him, it matches Persistence vs Persistence in an opposed roll. If it defeats him in the opposed roll then it possesses him and he is infected with the disease.

If the spirit is bound to a particular area then his only escape is to run away and hope to avoid being possessed before it stops chasing him.

Since the spirit has 2 combat actions per round, it would probably use one to do damage and one to try and possess him, or perhaps use an action to move if the person runs away.

If the adventurer has a spell such as Bladesharp then he can at least fight back. He tries to cast Bladesharp until he succeeds. Say he casts Bladesharp 3. He can now attack, doing 3 points of damage on a hit, assuming the spirit does not dodge the attack. He is still at -40% but the Bladesharp helps a bit by boosting his attack chance.

The spirit will probably try to possess him until it is reduced to 0 HP and dissipates.

If the adventurer has a spell such as Disruption, he can only cast it at the spirit if he can see it. If he overcomes the spirit (probably not hard as it doesn't have Resilience) he does 1D3 damage. But he can't see it so he can't cast the spell.

If the adventurer has Spirit Bane then he should cast it at once as then his whole weapon becomes magical and does full damage, probably including damage bonus as well. Since spirits don't have armour, a couple of good hits will take a spirit out.

If the adventurer has Second Sight/Soul Sight or Mystic Vision then he should cast those as that enables him to see the spirit and avoid the -40%.

If the adventurer has Spirit Shield or Spirit Block then he should cast it as that gives him armour against the spirit. So, Spirit Shield 2 pretty much blocks all the Disease Spirit's damage. Spirit Block is less useful, as the adventurer would need Spirit Block 4 to block a POW 10 spirit.

A kind GM would say tyhat the spirit manifests itself and allows the adventurer to see it and attack at full chance.

So, some actual examples.

Spirit vs non-magical adventurer:
Round 1 Spirit Attacks, Spirit Tries to Possess, Adventurer tries to attack and Dodge, Spirit Dodges
Round 2 Spirit Moves, Spirit Tries to Possess, Adventurer tries to Move twice and Dodge
Repeat Round 2 until adventurer is possessed or runs out of the range of the spirit.
Bad news for the adventurer.

Spirit vs Adventurer with Bladesharp 3:
Round 1: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, adventurer casts Bladesharp and attacks if successful otherwise runs away, dodges
Round 2: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, Adventurer attacks doing 3 points of damage
Repeat until adventurer is dead/possessed or until spirit is dissipated.
It takes 6 successful hits to take the spirit out with Bladesharp 3 and the spirit must succeed in a Persistence contest to possess him.
It looks bad for the adventurer.

Spirit vs Adventurer with Spirit Bane and a Warsword with a 1D2 damage:
bonus:
Round 1: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, adventurer casts Spirit Bane and attacks if successful otherwise runs away, dodges
Round 2: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, Adventurer attacks doing 6 points of damage on average
Repeat until adventurer is dead/possessed or until spirit is dissipated.
It takes 3 successful hits, on average, to take the spirit out, 6 rounds assuming the spirit does not dodge, so probably 10 rounds.
I'd still fancy the spirit.

Spirit vs Adventurer with Spirit Bane, Bladesharp 3 and a Warsword with a 1D2 damage:
bonus:
Round 1: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, adventurer casts Spirit Bane and attacks if successful otherwise runs away, dodges
Round 2: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, Adventurer tries to cast Bladesharp and attacks doing 6 points of damage on average (9 if Bladesharp is up)
Repeat until adventurer is dead/possessed or until spirit is dissipated.
It takes 2 successful hits, on average, to take the spirit out, 4 rounds assuming the spirit does not dodge, so probably 6 rounds.
I'd probably fancy the spirit but the adventurer could get lucky and get a good blow in.

Spirit vs Adventurer with Spirit Shield 2, Spirit Bane and a Warsword with a 1D2 damage:
bonus:
Round 1: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, adventurer casts Spirit Bane and attacks if successful otherwise runs away, dodges
Round 2: Spirit attacks, tries to possess, dodges, Adventurer attacks doing 6 points of damage on average
Repeat until adventurer is dead/possessed or until spirit is dissipated.
It takes 3 successful hits, on average, to take the spirit out, 6 rounds assuming the spirit does not dodge, so probably 10 rounds.
I'd still fancy the spirit.

So, looking at those examples, the psiirt has a very good chance of being victorious.

Hmmm. When I first saw the rules, I thought "What a load of rubbish, the spirit doesn't stand a chance." Now, I think "What a load of rubbish, the adventurer doesn't stand a chance."

Personally, I don't like the new spirit combat rules at all and would never use them. Attacking spirits with a sword should never be on, in my opinion.

I hope this helps.

 

[gamesmeister]

Couple of points on Simon's post

First, Disruption has no effect against a spirit, according to the rules. Not saying it's right or wrong, just repeating what the rules say.

Second, all this talk of Spirit Bane, all you really need is a single point of Spirit Screen and you're immune to possession. Some spirits can still mess you around physically, but the odds are looking much better at this point (assuming the spirit can't cast Dispel Magic of course :twisted: ).

Third, I don't agree that physical weapons shouldn't be able to hurt a spirit - there's plenty of room in the game for slashing at spirits with a magic sword IMO. But I also think there should be another way, especially for those familiar with spirits i.e. shamans.

 

[soltakss]

Ah, I hadn't noticed that spirits were immune to any Resist(Resilience) spell, so Disruption, Hand of Death, Ignite and Slow won't work.

Aha! I should read the spell descriptions more carefully. Indeed, Spirit Shield 1 stops possession and also allows the adventurer to parry! This vastly alters the balance and puts the spirit in danger.

So, someone with the right magic can render possession useless, can parry and can hurt the spirit. A reasonable Spirit Screen spell can block most spirits.

Although Spirit Screen says it allows a character to parry a spirit, I'd say that he had to have Spirit Bane as well otherwise how could he block the spiritual attack?

I just think that waving a sword against a spirit would mean the sword going straight through it. There should be another way that means that adventurers with no magic could fight off a spirit.

But, I stand corrected. I've never really bothered with the Spirit Combat rules in RQM as they are RUBBISH!

 

[RosenMcStern]

Well, in fact I disliked the RQ3 spirit combat rules much more. I have already posted in this forum about the Shaman-vs-5-spirits battle that I once run where all combatants had a 1-to-5% chance of to hit. That was the worst dice feast I ever saw.

The real problem with RQM rules for Spirit Combat is not that they involve hitting spirits with mundane weapons, but that they depend on the character's ability to strike. What use is to have a weapon that can parry spirits if your weapon skill sucks?

I think the whole point of Spirit Bane is to allow you to focus your will against the spirit in order to dispel it. The weapon is only the focus you use to channel your energies against the spirit. Using a dangerous weapon that you master should be rather effective, simply because you are using your self-confidence when wielding the weapon to channel your willpower. But this is by no means the only way to do it.

I think that wielding a Spirit-baned Rune against the Spirit should be effective as well. In this case you could use your Runecasting skill to hit and do 1d3 non-dodgeable damage. Or this could enable the Runecaster to hit spirits with spells that do not normally affect them like Disruption.

Or perhaps a Spirit-baned Holy Symbol could be considered a weapon, too, with your Theology skill used to hit.

 

[gamesmeister]

Or perhaps the use of a new advanced skill such as Control Spirit, as found in the wiki.

 

[blitz]

This is what I have been doing for those whithout magical aid against spirits. If the adventurer makes a successful attack, they then make a persistance roll. If the persistance roll is successful then they damage the spirit with only their damage modifier, at a minimum of 1 point of damage. They also loose a magic point, as this is a battle of their souls essence. I did this to keep the whole group involved in what's going on. Otherwise they kind of sit there and do nothing, and feel left out.

 

[papakee]

"the adventurer doesn't stand a chance."

Thats what I was thinking. It seems only the experienced adventurers should tangle with spirits. Otherwise, the run and flee tactic seems the best. Thanks for the examples. They really helped reinforce what I was reading.

 

[soltakss]

Thanks for the examples. They really helped reinforce what I was reading.

Even though they were wrong

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Thanks for the examples. They really helped reinforce what I was reading.

Even though they were wrong

Wrong examples are an integral feature of MRQ :twisted: