Combat Issues

[Loz]

That's fine for offensive purposes, you need to know how big the attacking weapon is in order to determine if you can parry it effectively. But for effective size when parrying, it needs to have some kind of special case like the Military Flail.

Why? A weapon is an extension of the limb holding it. A gorilla lashing out to strike with its fists has size M for its mass, but also size M for parrying purposes this doesn't change. Why would you introduce a special rule?

A military flail is clearly an exception due to the way the weapon is constructed: a highly flexible damage delivery end attached to a rigid haft. When attempting to parry with the haft of a flail you treat it as size M rather than size L - but this is a function of its construction.

If you throw-up an arm to ward off a blow you'll instinctively throw the entire arm in the way of the weapon because that gives you maximum potential protection. An arm is probably of the same length as a broadsword's blade (which is the bit of the sword doing the damaging) and certainly has a thicker profile (although not nearly as tough, unless encased in plate armour). And, even though an arm is jointed at the elbow you actually have two rigid portions available - not a rigid portion attached to a highly flexible, dangly one.

 

[PhilHibbs]

That's fine for offensive purposes, you need to know how big the attacking weapon is in order to determine if you can parry it effectively. But for effective size when parrying, it needs to have some kind of special case like the Military Flail.

Why? A weapon is an extension of the limb holding it. A gorilla lashing out to strike with its fists has size M for its mass, but also size M for parrying purposes this doesn't change. Why would you introduce a special rule?

OK, so... going back to your example... you parried with your arm, do you take damage or not? You now seem to be saying that the arm should be treated in every way like an M weapon and you take no damage.

 

[Caustic Marinade]

This is from page 85 of the core rulebook, where it describes weapon sizes:

Small – Human unarmed combat and light single handed
weapons less than a kilo in weight; a dagger, for example.

That passage indicates human unarmed combat is size small. I think that makes the most sense. It's possible to block full damage from a dagger, but it's much harder to block full damage from a sword (Harder but still possible- you'd need to roll critical and choose enhance parry).

 

[PhilHibbs]

This is from page 85 of the core rulebook, where it describes weapon sizes:

Small – Human unarmed combat and light single handed
weapons less than a kilo in weight; a dagger, for example.

That passage indicates human unarmed combat is size small.

Ah, well spotted. I can live with that.

 

[Loz]

OK, so... going back to your example... you parried with your arm, do you take damage or not? You now seem to be saying that the arm should be treated in every way like an M weapon and you take no damage.

Its clear from my example that the limb does take damage. Now, were I a creature with the Formidable Natural Weapons trait then it would be treated as a fully effective M weapon and take no damage - assuming you attack me with an M class sword. Effectively - and applying some common sense, which is why I had the limb taking damage when warding a sword blow - the attack is going to be akin to Damage Weapon (which is what someone pointed out earlier).

 

[Greg Smith]

And we are back to the old chestnut:

If an arm can be used to parry, does it grant an additional CA?

 

[Grimolde]

And we are back to the old chestnut:

If an arm can be used to parry, does it grant an additional CA?

I say no

 

[Caustic Marinade]

And we are back to the old chestnut:

If an arm can be used to parry, does it grant an additional CA?

I say no

I say yes. As long as one is not already being granted an extra CA from a shield or offhand weapon.

But. It's a DM preference call i think.

 

[DamonJynx]

A newb's summary:

1. Evade is an opposed test. Failure to Evade results in normal damage. The Evader can not attack with their next CA - unless they have a generous GM who let's them because they were able to use the "Regain Footing" CM.
2. Differences in LEVELS of success generate CM's as normal.
3. It is possible to parry unarmed, but unless your natural weapons are formidable, regardless of armour, the parrying limb suffers the rolled damage from the successful attack, Armour applies normally.
4. For the purpose of parries, a human's or similar, limbs are treated as medium - though this has no effect on the parried damage (why we're even worried about the size in this case is a mystery).
5. Using arms, legs or whatever would not grant an additional CA - weapons don't, only shields. Limbs are not shields.

My extra bit:
If parrying unarmed and the limb is subject to a major wound and the parrying creature fails it's resistance roll, I would suggest the limb is severed and any damage in excess of that which caused the limb to be severed should be applied to the appropriate hit location eg, the chest, head or abdomen if parrying with an arm.

That sound about right?

 

[Loz]

1. Evade is an opposed test. Failure to Evade results in normal damage. The Evader can not attack with their next CA - unless they have a generous GM who let's them because they were able to use the "Regain Footing" CM.
2. Differences in LEVELS of success generate CM's as normal.
3. It is possible to parry unarmed, but unless your natural weapons are formidable, regardless of armour, the parrying limb suffers the rolled damage from the successful attack, Armour applies normally.
4. For the purpose of parries, a human's or similar, limbs are treated as medium - though this has no effect on the parried damage (why we're even worried about the size in this case is a mystery).
5. Using arms, legs or whatever would not grant an additional CA - weapons don't, only shields. Limbs are not shields.

A very neat summary.

My extra bit:
If parrying unarmed and the limb is subject to a major wound and the parrying creature fails it's resistance roll, I would suggest the limb is severed and any damage in excess of that which caused the limb to be severed should be applied to the appropriate hit location eg, the chest, head or abdomen if parrying with an arm.

Overkill. I really would just stick the rules as they are.

 

[Caustic Marinade]

A newb's summary:
5. Using arms, legs or whatever would not grant an additional CA - weapons don't, only shields. Limbs are not shields.

Using two weapons most certainly does grant an extra CA. Core rules page 83:

Using two weapons simultaneously also permits the wielder
an extra Combat Action per round...

Now. Whether a DM will allow unarmed attacks to count as a second weapon for this purpose is up for debate as far as I can tell.

 

[DamonJynx]

Using two weapons most certainly does grant an extra CA. Core rules page 83:

Using two weapons simultaneously also permits the wielder
an extra Combat Action per round...

Now. Whether a DM will allow unarmed attacks to count as a second weapon for this purpose is up for debate as far as I can tell.

Quite right. I missed that. Definitely up to DM interpretation I think. Without giving it hours of thought, I probably wouldn't allow the extra CA unless the PC (or NPC, for that matter) had some sort of unarmed combat style and didn't normally prefer the use of weapons. For it to provide an extra CA you would need to be trained as you are (reflected in the combat style) with Two Weapons, or Weapon & Shield.

And Loz, yes probably a it of overkill on the extra bit, I'd have to agree.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Without giving it hours of thought, I probably wouldn't allow the extra CA unless the PC (or NPC, for that matter) had some sort of unarmed combat style and didn't normally prefer the use of weapons.

Everyone has Unarmed, it's a common skill, and granting a CA based on personal preference is a bit wishy-washy as rules go. I'm not sure about this one.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Its clear from my example that the limb does take damage. Now, were I a creature with the Formidable Natural Weapons trait then it would be treated as a fully effective M weapon and take no damage - assuming you attack me with an M class sword.

Ah, that's what I was missing - the existence of the Formidable Natural Weapons trait implies the existence of a rule that says that natural weapons don't block damage, that's the "special case" that I was referring to that you seemed to think there was no need for (possibly because you knew it was already there). I can't find that rule at the moment, anyone spotted it recently?

 

[PhilHibbs]

A newb's summary:
4. For the purpose of parries, a human's or similar, limbs are treated as medium - though this has no effect on the parried damage (why we're even worried about the size in this case is a mystery).

Someone already pointed out the rules saying that it's Small, not Medium, but as you say, it's kind of irrelevent. Unless you gain a Chaos Feature that makes your natural weapons Formidable, or maybe a nature spirit could do that for a shaman.

 

[Da Boss]

Indeed, I think Unarmed would have been better as a Advanced Skill or straight Combat Style with the most basic attacks - punch, kick, grapple available to anyone at a base chance of Str + Dex.

This would better model the idea that you are either trained in the use of unarmed combat or not?

It would also allow those skilled in this to claim the extra CA for dual weapons........

 

[PhilHibbs]

Indeed, I think Unarmed would have been better as a Advanced Skill or straight Combat Style with the most basic attacks - punch, kick, grapple available to anyone at a base chance of Str + Dex.

In effect, you're talking about the return of Martial Arts as an advanced skill.

 

[Deleriad]

FWIW I personally call Unarmed skill "Brawling."

It's the skill of punching, kicking, biting, gouging, grabbing, twisting, snapping and bashing heads against a wall. I also use it for picking up a chair leg and smashing someone over the head with it or if you're holding a spear and have been closed, use Brawling to use the haft etc.

Generally if someone uses unarmed/Brawling, the attack is small and touch unless it makes sense otherwise (e.g. the chair leg) and does 1D3 damage.

I don't personally allow brawling parries to be used effectively against an attack by a weapon or a natural weapon. What I do is bump an attacking weapon up one size category. A brawling parry can of course prevent CMs and also, should the attack fail, you could use an unarmed parry to take weapon and so on. This does mean if you have someone with a sword attack of 50% and you have an unarmed skill of 120% then you're reducing their attack by 20% merely by trying to parry unarmed.

I also would not allow any unarmed skill to give a bonus CA. If you picked up a dustbin lid and club then it doesn't give you a bonus CA if you use unarmed/brawling. If however you happen to know club and shield you could get a bonus CA that way.

The beauty of RQ has always been that you can deal with odd circumstances by on the spot, situational rulings. So if someone desperately tries to parry a bear's claw attack with an arm then I might say "ok this time you can take the damage to your arm if you make the parry" but that's something that doesn't require a whole bunch of conditional rules, simply an agreement to modify the normal rules based on the situation.

 

[Loz]

Ah, that's what I was missing - the existence of the Formidable Natural Weapons... I can't find that rule at the moment, anyone spotted it recently?

Its in Monster Coliseum.

 

[Greg Smith]

Someone already pointed out the rules saying that it's Small, not Medium, but as you say, it's kind of irrelevent.

But the size of a parrying 'weapon' is important. A small parrying weapon (arm) will only stop half of the damage of a medium weapon (sword).

So someone who parries a sword with his arm should take half damage to their arm and the other half to the rolled location.

Also potentially applying armour twice. :shock:

Even if you chose to make a limb M for the purposes of parrying, you could still have the same effect with a Large (or larger) weapon.