Collateral damage

[fusor]

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

"A police force is a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder." They are empowered by the government - they are not part of the government. "Government" are the people who run the state, make the laws, etc - the Police don't do that. They're no more "government" than a building inspector or a construction worker on a public project.

A construction worker on a public project works for a third part who is hired by the government, so I would agree. But a City Inspector? You are saying they are not part of the government just because they don't make laws? Interesting point of view. So is the Secretary of State part of the Government? They don't run the state nor do they make laws.

Very interesting way of looking at the Government.

Well for this purpose I'm mostly looking at it from the Traveller UWP stat perspective. I'd say Government (especially in Traveller) is the bureaucracy - the politicians, bureaucrats, civil servants etc. I suppose building inspectors might be more on fuzzy ground, but I definitely don't view Police as part of the Government. They're certainly related to Government, but they're a separate thing. Maybe it varies from country to country though.

I mean, are Military part of the Government? They're a government-sponsored fighting force empowered with defending the country (or for offensive purposes). I wouldn't say they were.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I think you are discussing the difference between English and colonial dialects. In English the government is the organisations that control the state. The police are not part of the government, but a part of the state. At least that is what I have been led to believe.

 

[fusor]

In English the government is the organisations that control the state. The police are not part of the government, but a part of the state. At least that is what I have been led to believe.

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm saying.

 

[phavoc]

I think you are discussing the difference between English and colonial dialects. In English the government is the organisations that control the state. The police are not part of the government, but a part of the state. At least that is what I have been led to believe.

That could account for the issue. In the US, the government is the state, largely speaking. State for us has multiple definitions. We have local government, at the city level, county government, then state, then federal. At each level there are agencies and employees of"the state", or the government, that represent the government to the public and are responsible for enforcing the rules and regulations on society ad a whole.

And actual the "colonies" speak English as well. It would be more accurate to say under the UK government model as opposed to the US government model. The US government model is a hodge podge of homegrown ideas as well as an amalgam of European, not just UK, laws.

 

[-Daniel-]

So we are all saying the same thing with different words? :lol:

What a lot we are. :mrgreen:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I think you are discussing the difference between English and colonial dialects. In English the government is the organisations that control the state. The police are not part of the government, but a part of the state. At least that is what I have been led to believe.

A state like New York State. Albany is a part of that state, as is Long Island, or Lake Erie. The government is that which enforces the laws, the legislature passes those laws, the Executive branch enforces those laws, and the Judicial branch interprets those laws. As far as I'm concerned the police department and the Military by that definition are part of the Executive Branch, because they enforce the laws or carry out orders from the Chief Executive. As far as I know, the state is what's between the borders that define its territory.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I think you are discussing the difference between English and colonial dialects. In English the government is the organisations that control the state. The police are not part of the government, but a part of the state. At least that is what I have been led to believe.

That could account for the issue. In the US, the government is the state, largely speaking. State for us has multiple definitions. We have local government, at the city level, county government, then state, then federal. At each level there are agencies and employees of"the state", or the government, that represent the government to the public and are responsible for enforcing the rules and regulations on society ad a whole.

And actual the "colonies" speak English as well. It would be more accurate to say under the UK government model as opposed to the US government model. The US government model is a hodge podge of homegrown ideas as well as an amalgam of European, not just UK, laws.

I interpret "State" to mean country or Nation, so everything that is part of that nation, its people, it territory is part of the State, that includes the government. However not all of the State is the government, that which enforces the laws is the government, that which decides what the laws are going to be is the government, that which interprets what the laws mean is the government. I think the British use a much narrower definition of that the government is, to them, its a bunch or elected politicians, anyone who is not an elected politician is not part of the Government.

 

[mancerbear]

In Australia, the Government is the elected politicians, the senate and the parliament. Police, judges, public servants, the military, are all employees of the Government, but are not in fact, the Government. The Government "governs", that is, makes police, procedure, and law. The police enforce that law, Judges interpret that law, the military defends the nation, the public service maintain the administration.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Police are the enforcement arm of a government. They don't make laws, but they do enforce laws on behalf of the government. Even a privatized police force acts in the same manner, therefore they are, arguably, still representative of the government.

They're enforcers of the laws that governments make, yes. But they're usually not considered as part of the government - the police aren't running the country (or planet). Usually you'd have the Executive, Legislature, Judiciary, etc - but Police is outside of that. You can have a "police state" where the government uses the police to enforce its laws excessively, but the police still don't actually run the government.

So if you take Robinson Crusoe, give him a badge and a gun, then he is a cop, right? Ole Robinson can probably salvage a pistol from his ship wreck, and he can pound a silver coin from that shipwreck into a badge that he can pin on his shirt, and since he is the entire population of the island he was shipwrecked on, would that make him a cop? My guess is Robinson Crusoe's island has a government type called a participatory democracy, and whenever Robinson wants to pass a new law, he votes on it, and then he pulls out his pistol, pins on his badge and enforces it!

 

[mancerbear]

So if you take Robinson Crusoe, give him a badge and a gun, then he is a cop, right? Ole Robinson can probably salvage a pistol from his ship wreck, and he can pound a silver coin from that shipwreck into a badge that he can pin on his shirt, and since he is the entire population of the island he was shipwrecked on, would that make him a cop? My guess is Robinson Crusoe's island has a government type called a participatory democracy, and whenever Robinson wants to pass a new law, he votes on it, and then he pulls out his pistol, pins on his badge and enforces it!

No, because a government requires a population to govern in the name of apart from itself.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

In Australia, the Government is the elected politicians, the senate and the parliament. Police, judges, public servants, the military, are all employees of the Government, but are not in fact, the Government. The Government "governs", that is, makes police, procedure, and law. The police enforce that law, Judges interpret that law, the military defends the nation, the public service maintain the administration.

If the elected politicians existed by themselves, and there were no police to enforce the laws they passed, would they be a government? By your definition, the United Nation is a government without police, if some nation misbehaves and violates one of their laws on paper, then all this "government" can do is protest.

As far as I'm concerned, laws don't exist unless they are enforced. If we have a legislature that passes laws and writes them down on paper, but no enforcement mechanism, this government is a joke, it doesn't do the citizens any good to have a group of people gathering together to pass laws that aren't enforced, you can have multiple such meeting houses with multiple pretend governments all passing different and contradictory laws and writing them on paper, and as far as the people are concerned, they are just a delusional bunch of people that pretend to govern them, while in the meantime, they are prey to bandits, murderers and other criminals, and these useless people pass pretend laws, and their are no police to enforce those laws and keep them safe. I would not call a bunch of people who have legislative sessions and vote on resolutions and laws that are not enforced a government. A hermit who thinks he is the President, can give all the orders he wants to imaginary people, but as far as everybody else is concerned, he's nuts!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

So if you take Robinson Crusoe, give him a badge and a gun, then he is a cop, right? Ole Robinson can probably salvage a pistol from his ship wreck, and he can pound a silver coin from that shipwreck into a badge that he can pin on his shirt, and since he is the entire population of the island he was shipwrecked on, would that make him a cop? My guess is Robinson Crusoe's island has a government type called a participatory democracy, and whenever Robinson wants to pass a new law, he votes on it, and then he pulls out his pistol, pins on his badge and enforces it!

No, because a government requires a population to govern in the name of apart from itself.

So if his man Friday shows up, and Robinson points a gun at him and says, "you'd better do what I say," does that make him the government or a cop?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Sounds like a transition to Government Code A (Charismatic dictator) or Government Code B (Non-charismatic dictator) depending on whether Friday forgives him, or not?

 

[mancerbear]

If the elected politicians existed by themselves, and there were no police to enforce the laws they passed, would they be a government? By your definition, the United Nation is a government without police, if some nation misbehaves and violates one of their laws on paper, then all this "government" can do is protest.

Which is why Governments employ a police force, to enforce the laws they create. The United nations isn't a Government, because they don't govern.

 

[mancerbear]

So if his man Friday shows up, and Robinson points a gun at him and says, "you'd better do what I say," does that make him the government or a cop?

It makes him a psychopath.

 

[-Daniel-]

It feels like we are now stuck in a rut.

Going back to the idea of collateral damage, I once had a group of PCs that kept getting into gun fights at the drop of a hat end up killing a bunch of bystanders. Then I had that drive a major manhunt for them. They learned their lesson and used combat much more sparingly. :mrgreen:

 

[rust2]

By your definition, the United Nation is a government without police, if some nation misbehaves and violates one of their laws on paper, then all this "government" can do is protest.

The United Nations is not a government, it is an organization of representatives of governments of independent states. It cannot create laws, only treaties between the governments of the independent member states. The member states usually agree to adhere to these treaties and to turn them into their national laws, which then gives them the duty to enforce these laws.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A state like New York State.

In American English, but not in English.

I interpret "State" to mean country or Nation, ...

Formally a State (État) is a sovereign entity. A Nation is based on ethnicity.

E.g.: Korea is a Nation, The Republic of Korea (aka South Korea) is a State.
The USA is a State, and also a Nation.
The UK is a State, but not a Nation. England is a Nation. (I think? Britain is quite good at avoiding exact definitions.)
"New York State" is not a State.

A State can be seen as an organisation, the State is then the organisations that are directly governed by the Government (the Crown, the Feds, ...). The FBI is a part of the State, the NYPD is not since it is a municipal organisation.


Local dialect disagree. What I outlined above is what most people outside the US hear when you say "state". International fora necessitates some level of translation, even for English speakers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It feels like we are now stuck in a rut.

Sorry for the digression.

Going back to the idea of collateral damage, I once had a group of PCs that kept getting into gun fights at the drop of a hat end up killing a bunch of bystanders. Then I had that drive a major manhunt for them. They learned their lesson and used combat much more sparingly. :mrgreen:

Combat with military firearms is quite deadly, we have generally realised that if we want to keep our characters alive it is better to avoid combat if possible.

 

[rust2]

Combat with military firearms is quite deadly, we have generally realised that if we want to keep our characters alive it is better to avoid combat if possible.

For my Thalassa water world setting I decided to use a different solution to this problem, military firearms and most other lethal weapons are illegal on Thalassa (which otherwise has a rather low law level), their possession and especially their use by anyone but the police force members results in permanent exile from the planet. The most powerful generally available weapon is the SSR (Sonic Stun Rifle), the most lethal generally available weapon is a speargun.