Collateral damage

[Tom Kalbfus]

You have to work forward from the Pop UWP digit, not backwards from the Law digit:

If there is no Population, there is no Government (or Law, or Tech Level). The world is Barren.

If there is Population (1+. I think MGT modified Pop 1 to mean 1-99 people, not 10-99 as it was before), there can be Government (up to Gov 6), but there's more likely to be "No Government" (Gov 0, as in 'clans or families only').

If there's Gov 0, there can be Law levels (up to Law 5), but it's more likely to be Law 0.

If there is no government to enforce the law, how could you have laws? Laws are just words on paper if there is no one there to enforce them.

 

[mancerbear]

Ah! This conversation reminded me that in World Builders Handbook, it had an optional legal profile on page 82, divided into Overall (the world UWP), Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom. Specific levels were found by rolling 2D-7+ government. So by that a Law Level 0 world with Government 1 could have law levels as high as 6. Personally I would state that since the basic Traveller Law Level stat is by definition tied to weapons that weapons do not need a separate category.

I was going to suggest this same thing. I think the Law Level needs to be broken down into those various areas to give a good cover of the world in general. Not necessary for a quick visit, but if you plan on having adventures... I think with the new Traveller, we could go with weapons, armour, drugs, personal freedom... off the top of my head...

 

[-Daniel-]

So does a law level deal only with weapons and nothing else?

Not based on the rule book. In the 2e book, pages 223 and 224, it gives a brief overview and while weapons are part of the list, there are other things discussed.

 

[mancerbear]

So does a law level deal only with weapons and nothing else?

Not based on the rule book. In the 2e book, pages 223 and 224, it gives a brief overview and while weapons are part of the list, there are other things discussed.

Agreed, and what would be restricted based on the Government type as well, so it's all very interesting. The current Law Level seems to be an "overall " Law Level, with particulars dictated by Government type.

 

[fusor]

If there is no government to enforce the law, how could you have laws? Laws are just words on paper if there is no one there to enforce them.

Well first, government make laws - police enforce them.

Second, 0 Gov isn't "no government" - it's "No government structure. In many cases family bonds predominate" (at least according to CT). It's essentially another form of "Balkanised", except on a family/clan level rather than a national level. If there's few enough people then it could all be one family/extended family. Admittedly, you could technically have 100,000s of people and still have Gov 0 (roll 2 on 2d-7 for Gov with pop 5) which is a bit of a stretch for this - I guess scottish/pictish clans in ancient or medieval times might count as an equivalent?

Ultimately though, the CT-style worldgen kinda breaks down a bit at the extremes here (as it often does). It's better to use common sense at this point than slavishly stick to dice rolls.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So does a law level deal only with weapons and nothing else?

Of course not, but it is the most clear and definite guideline to what the law levels mean.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If there is no government to enforce the law, how could you have laws? Laws are just words on paper if there is no one there to enforce them.

We have had law without government employees before, in the Anglo-Saxon world concepts like juries and citizen's arrests are remains of that system.

In the old teutonic system there were no police, no jails, and no government involvement, but there was law. The family of the injured party were responsible for the case and it was judged in front of the local folk moot.

In Somalia today there is little in the way of government, but Sharia law is probably still implemented to some degree? It does not take more than the idea of law, a few villagers to arrest the suspect and dragging him to the local mosque for trial to make a legal system of sorts.


I note that there are 3 worlds in the Spinward Marches with Government 0 and Law Level >0, two of them with pop 5. Obviously there can be law without formal government in Traveller, we have to use out imaginations.

 

[Reynard]

Read the Law Level section of either 1e or 2e. They list a few significant tasks players can expect to encounter. Most importantly it determines reaction to criminal behavior especially by player characters.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

If there is no government to enforce the law, how could you have laws? Laws are just words on paper if there is no one there to enforce them.

Well first, government make laws - police enforce them.

Second, 0 Gov isn't "no government" - it's "No government structure. In many cases family bonds predominate" (at least according to CT). It's essentially another form of "Balkanised", except on a family/clan level rather than a national level. If there's few enough people then it could all be one family/extended family. Admittedly, you could technically have 100,000s of people and still have Gov 0 (roll 2 on 2d-7 for Gov with pop 5) which is a bit of a stretch for this - I guess scottish/pictish clans in ancient or medieval times might count as an equivalent?

Ultimately though, the CT-style worldgen kinda breaks down a bit at the extremes here (as it often does). It's better to use common sense at this point than slavishly stick to dice rolls.

No government structure means what? No police? Lets think of the simplest example, lets suppose a lone individual is shipwrecked on a planet, he is the only one that lives there. What sort of government structure is there? Now lets suppose along with that individual is some cloning apparatus, the individual is a woman and she gives birth to her own clones, the clones have her genetic material, and over time her descendants populate an entire planet before contact is reestablished. What sort of government is this likely to have?

 

[rust2]

Now lets suppose along with that individual is some cloning apparatus, the individual is a woman and she gives birth to her own clones, the clones have her genetic material, and over time her descendants populate an entire planet before contact is reestablished. What sort of government is this likely to have?

Clones are only genetically identical, depending on their upbringing and experiences the individual clones can develop completely different personalities. A planet inhabited by clones of one person could have any type of government, just like any other inhabited planet.

 

[fusor]

No government structure means what? No police?

Government is not the police. And Gov level doesn't determine what the police would do. So stop thinking that.

It just means that there's no formalised government structure. The only 20 people on the planet informally deciding what their plan is for the next month over dinner isn't "government". If they decide to elect a council of 3 people to run the place though? Then you have a government.

The gov types in CT are fuzzy. You could call an extended family a "self-perpetuating oligarchy" (gov 3) if only the eldest make decisions. Again, it's just down to using common sense.

Lets think of the simplest example, lets suppose a lone individual is shipwrecked on a planet, he is the only one that lives there. What sort of government structure is there? Now lets suppose along with that individual is some cloning apparatus, the individual is a woman and she gives birth to her own clones, the clones have her genetic material, and over time her descendants populate an entire planet before contact is reestablished. What sort of government is this likely to have?

Your example is utterly irrelevant to anything (and certainly isn't "the simplest example"). 1 person doesn't have a government, obviously. And all those clones would eventually decide on a government on their own. Common sense, again.

 

[phavoc]

Government is not the police. And Gov level doesn't determine what the police would do. So stop thinking that.

It just means that there's no formalised government structure. The only 20 people on the planet informally deciding what their plan is for the next month over dinner isn't "government". If they decide to elect a council of 3 people to run the place though? Then you have a government.

Whaaaatttt???? Taking away the only-in-extreme-debates-example, please show me a civilization that had police, or police-equivalents, where the police wasn't the government.

Police are the enforcement arm of a government. They don't make laws, but they do enforce laws on behalf of the government. Even a privatized police force acts in the same manner, therefore they are, arguably, still representative of the government.

 

[wbnc]

Most trial cultures have well-established laws and traditions and some ven have had leaders picked by the populace. but they had no concept of police or army. the community at large acted as both.

early Militias in American Colonies had militias that were totally independent of the government, and were not part of it. if there was a need for armed response to a problem a call went out and commn citizens assembled and responded. Soe militias had charters, organization charts, officers and internal regulations. Also in some cases, the only government in the area was a village or colony council, who didn't control the militia it was self-governing.

 

[fusor]

Police are the enforcement arm of a government. They don't make laws, but they do enforce laws on behalf of the government. Even a privatized police force acts in the same manner, therefore they are, arguably, still representative of the government.

They're enforcers of the laws that governments make, yes. But they're usually not considered as part of the government - the police aren't running the country (or planet). Usually you'd have the Executive, Legislature, Judiciary, etc - but Police is outside of that. You can have a "police state" where the government uses the police to enforce its laws excessively, but the police still don't actually run the government.

 

[Infojunky]

Law Level From the original source: "It is also the throw (law level +) to avoid being harassed or arrested by
local authorities."

In play over the years I have used said roll to indicate how much legal interference in the players affairs on a given world.

 

[phavoc]

Police are the enforcement arm of a government. They don't make laws, but they do enforce laws on behalf of the government. Even a privatized police force acts in the same manner, therefore they are, arguably, still representative of the government.

They're enforcers of the laws that governments make, yes. But they're usually not considered as part of the government - the police aren't running the country (or planet). Usually you'd have the Executive, Legislature, Judiciary, etc - but Police is outside of that. You can have a "police state" where the government uses the police to enforce its laws excessively, but the police still don't actually run the government.

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

 

[fusor]

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

"A police force is a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder." They are empowered by the government - they are not part of the government. "Government" are the people who run the state, make the laws, etc - the Police don't do that. They're no more "government" than a building inspector or a construction worker on a public project.

 

[-Daniel-]

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

So do you see Law Enforcement (Better term than Police IMO) as part of the Judiciary Branch?

I was thinking about what you said, is every employee of a government agency part of the government? I was thinking yes. And thus why here in the US the FBI reports to the Department of Justice for example. They are not independent.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[-Daniel-]

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

"A police force is a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder." They are empowered by the government - they are not part of the government. "Government" are the people who run the state, make the laws, etc - the Police don't do that. They're no more "government" than a building inspector or a construction worker on a public project.

A construction worker on a public project works for a third part who is hired by the government, so I would agree. But a City Inspector? You are saying they are not part of the government just because they don't make laws? Interesting point of view. So is the Secretary of State part of the Government? They don't run the state nor do they make laws.

Very interesting way of looking at the Government.

 

[phavoc]

Agreed they aren't the legislature. However they are still an arm of the government, ergo they are the government.

"A police force is a constituted body of persons empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder." They are empowered by the government - they are not part of the government. "Government" are the people who run the state, make the laws, etc - the Police don't do that. They're no more "government" than a building inspector or a construction worker on a public project.

I disagree. A police officer is a direct employee of a government, in this case a city. A building inspector or construction worker, who is an employee of the government, is a representative of the government.

You may not like that definition, but that's how it works. Otherwise what constitutes a gover mental entity and it's representatives?