Collateral damage

[wbnc]

If there is autofire, assume between 60% to 90% of the rounds fired would miss and impact on surfaces such as walls, go through windows, smash through car windscreens and door panels, ricochet off harder surfaces such as stone and so on. So after the gunfight, you'd see a lot of bullet holes and pits, lots of glass fragments glittering all over the floor, maybe a fire hydrant geysering a fountain of water and something on fire.

And everywhere would just reek of burned black powder.

Ah the smell of hot metal and burning powder. If anyone ever wants to give me cologne find Eau Du Firing( joke I'm not that big of a gun geek)

If anything yer being very generous on how many rounds hit something other than air, or the ground. but yeah, that's about what happens.

the few times I have had a chance to fire an automatic weapon the sheer number of wasted rounds was impressive. I'm pretty good with a pistol or rifle. but dern, I wasted a lot of rounds.
even the fellow who had decent training with the weapon only managed a few hits with each burst everything else went into the backstop.

An SMG/carbine/assault rifle is likely to produce an impressive number of holes in the wall but it's not much good unless someone has a good deal of training and experience with automatic weapons.Unless Murphy or Karma are involved...those two never miss.

 

[alex_greene]

If there is autofire, assume between 60% to 90% of the rounds fired would miss and impact on surfaces such as walls, go through windows, smash through car windscreens and door panels, ricochet off harder surfaces such as stone and so on. So after the gunfight, you'd see a lot of bullet holes and pits, lots of glass fragments glittering all over the floor, maybe a fire hydrant geysering a fountain of water and something on fire.

And everywhere would just reek of burned black powder.

An SMG/carbine/assault rifle is likely to produce an impressive number of holes in the wall but it's not much good unless someone has a good deal of training and experience with automatic weapons.Unless Murphy or Karma are involved...those two never miss.

"It's not the bullet with your name on it that you need to worry about. It's the bullet with "To Whom It May Concern" that'll kill you."

 

[wbnc]

If there is autofire, assume between 60% to 90% of the rounds fired would miss and impact on surfaces such as walls, go through windows, smash through car windscreens and door panels, ricochet off harder surfaces such as stone and so on. So after the gunfight, you'd see a lot of bullet holes and pits, lots of glass fragments glittering all over the floor, maybe a fire hydrant geysering a fountain of water and something on fire.

And everywhere would just reek of burned black powder.

An SMG/carbine/assault rifle is likely to produce an impressive number of holes in the wall but it's not much good unless someone has a good deal of training and experience with automatic weapons.Unless Murphy or Karma are involved...those two never miss.

"It's not the bullet with your name on it that you need to worry about. It's the bullet with "To Whom It May Concern" that'll kill you."

OH yeah! I seem to remember that line from somewhere.

 

[Reynard]

This is why in the Philadelphia area you too often hear about people not part of a firefight are wounded and killed even inside homes. So far no vehicles exploding from gunfire but a shot up car could be damaged enough to need serious repairs before it works. I notice single shot and semi-automatics in Traveller are categorized together with no advantage to rapid fire which is the usual reason these are used in mass shootings. Other weapons are listed as full automatic but on give bonuses to damage rather than accuracy.

The big reason a referee would want to track wayward shots would be RPG cinematics or a plot device. Certain damaged items could lead to a twist in the player's action. It can also suggest the power of those weapons.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Slug throwers have a possibility of puncturing a fuel tank or rupturing a fuel line, but there shouldn't be too much of an issue with slugs or gauss rounds causing a fuel fire.

Lasers, on the other hand, do have a high probability of causing a fire if they flash vaporize a puddle of fuel or hit a fuel tank. That's how they do damage after all.

The law level 0 doesn't mean everyone is chaoticly running around shooting up the town. You can bet the local police will have grav vehicles imported from off world and have heavier weapons than the average citizen. I wouldn't put it past the police to respond to a firefight with a g carrier (though not armed with a fusion gun).

Passing traffic would immediately halt when the bullets started flying, so there shouldn't be any sort of problem there.

I think a law level of 0 means there aren't any police period, instead the streets are ruled by gangs, the pirates are probably one of those gangs, the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia! There are streets built when there was a law level other than zero, but now there are just left overs, the gangs clear the streets so they can move their vehicles around, there is no actual law, instead people pay protection money to the local gang that rules their block, if the gangs don't like somebody they rub them out, there is no trials or jury, most residents know better than to cross a gang member, they typically try to stay out of their way, pay the protection money so they wont be harassed. The gangs realize that if they let the locals do their business, that there will be more protection money for them to steal, so they let them. The city has no government, it is a series of turf battles and gang warlords, but nothing that would be considered "law and order". That is my interpretation of law level 0.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia!

You are describing Government 0, not Law Level 0.

 

[phavoc]

I think a law level of 0 means there aren't any police period, instead the streets are ruled by gangs, the pirates are probably one of those gangs, the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia! There are streets built when there was a law level other than zero, but now there are just left overs, the gangs clear the streets so they can move their vehicles around, there is no actual law, instead people pay protection money to the local gang that rules their block, if the gangs don't like somebody they rub them out, there is no trials or jury, most residents know better than to cross a gang member, they typically try to stay out of their way, pay the protection money so they wont be harassed. The gangs realize that if they let the locals do their business, that there will be more protection money for them to steal, so they let them. The city has no government, it is a series of turf battles and gang warlords, but nothing that would be considered "law and order". That is my interpretation of law level 0.

Unless there is total anarchy, there is going to be SOME sort of organization and structure to allow for shared communal resources to be utilized by everyone. And anarchists (true ones anyway) by definition shun organized civilization. Whether it be rule of law, rule of gun, or rule of something, SOMEthing for SOMEone(s) is going to create and establish order. The peacekeepers may not have a badge, but their actions and functions are no different for when there is a badge and rule of law behind the badge.

In the Judge Dredd setting, where you had gang organizations, they were only possible because there was an external organization that created the structure by which they got their cool guns and ammunition and where able to steal and plunder in order to survive. Without structure somewhere to make and produce all those goods nobody has access to them, let alone are able to steal from someone.

 

[rust2]

I think a law level of 0 means there aren't any police period, instead the streets are ruled by gangs, the pirates are probably one of those gangs, the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia!

I would think that most societies with a law level of 0 would still have rules and enforcers of these rules, but there would be no laws and no law enforcement. Think of something like Sicily under the Mafia. People could lead more or less normal lives, the general level of violence was comparatively low, and there were well established rules, although laws and police were rarely - if ever - experienced. Someone who broke the rules had a visit from a few Mafia "soldiers" who reminded him of the rules by beating him up, breaking a few bones or perhaps even killing him. No law, no proper police procedures, no trial, but still order and a level of security.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

... the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia!

You are describing Government 0, not Law Level 0.

If there is no law, there is no government, just like if you have an atmosphere of 0 you have hydrographics of zero. You can't have law if there is no government, and if the government does not enforce the law, it isn't a government. One example is the United Nations, it doesn't enforce any laws, so if you envision a government that acts like the United Nations, issuing pronouncements without enforcement, then that is the equivalent of a law level 0 and a government of 0, even though it pretends to be a government, it really is not!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I think a law level of 0 means there aren't any police period, instead the streets are ruled by gangs, the pirates are probably one of those gangs, the best terrestrial analogue for a law level of zero is Somalia! There are streets built when there was a law level other than zero, but now there are just left overs, the gangs clear the streets so they can move their vehicles around, there is no actual law, instead people pay protection money to the local gang that rules their block, if the gangs don't like somebody they rub them out, there is no trials or jury, most residents know better than to cross a gang member, they typically try to stay out of their way, pay the protection money so they wont be harassed. The gangs realize that if they let the locals do their business, that there will be more protection money for them to steal, so they let them. The city has no government, it is a series of turf battles and gang warlords, but nothing that would be considered "law and order". That is my interpretation of law level 0.

Unless there is total anarchy, there is going to be SOME sort of organization and structure to allow for shared communal resources to be utilized by everyone. And anarchists (true ones anyway) by definition shun organized civilization. Whether it be rule of law, rule of gun, or rule of something, SOMEthing for SOMEone(s) is going to create and establish order. The peacekeepers may not have a badge, but their actions and functions are no different for when there is a badge and rule of law behind the badge.

In the Judge Dredd setting, where you had gang organizations, they were only possible because there was an external organization that created the structure by which they got their cool guns and ammunition and where able to steal and plunder in order to survive. Without structure somewhere to make and produce all those goods nobody has access to them, let alone are able to steal from someone.

What does an anarchist do when he's just been robbed?

He goes to who he thinks is the culprit and attempts t steal it back.

If someone gets murdered, then the anarchists get out their guns and start a feud.

Another type of law level 0 society is when the population is just too few and social interactions are just too rare to have any sort of law or government. Picture Robinson Crusoe, he lives by himself ad has a few interactions with cannibals and pirates, now imagine that on a planet wide scale. You have individual families living in the wilderness, if someone robs them or cheats them, they take matters into their own hands, there is no authority to go to. A planet with a population of 4 or less can have anarchy, there is no government, no law, people rarely ever encounter one another, when they do, the interaction usually is peaceful, as there are risks to violence! Everyone is armed, they don't want to start a fire fight, but they have weapons just in case. Most people just want to get by, they want to earn a living without taking risks, they trade or barter when they have to, but its all based on the honor system. They want good relations with their neighbors to avoid trouble, but the population just isn't large enough for the criminal element to come into play, usually!

 

[rust2]

If there is no law, there is no government ...

We have had some historical examples of "government without law", dictatorships where the ruler simply did whatever he liked at the moment.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

If there is no law, there is no government ...

We have had some historical examples of "government without law", dictatorships where the ruler simply did whatever he liked at the moment.

That is a gang leader. Gang leaders are laws unto themselves, the problem is gangs stay local, the Gang leader is forced to make too many individual decisions, and if he is to rely on underlings, he has to set up a system of laws to give them guidance on what to do, should various situations occur. If you have anything resembling a bureaucracy, you need laws to guide that bureaucracy on what to do, who to arrest, who to execute or what for! if its just a gang, you take it to the gang leader and he decides who lives and who dies. You can't have a planetary government like that, it would be just too big for a gang leader to make all those decisions, he would be forced to set up a bureaucracy and have a law level other than 0 to cement his rule over an entire planet. Otherwise there is no government, you just have guys with guns. (and girls too in some cases) You listen to the guy with the gun or he shoots you, that is how it works without law or government, you could shoot him back of course, and whoever wins the firefight is he established local authority until the next firefight. Most people prefer to follow the path of least resistance, if the local warlord isn't bothering him too much, then they aren't going to get in a firefight with him, and until such time as someone challenges him, he remains the local warlord.

 

[Reynard]

"If there is no law, there is no government"

You can have government with low law levels. It shows a society that is comfortable and trusting of citizens to do what is right. 'No restrictions' doesn't mean a heavy weapon and armor are mandatory, it means such things are relatively rare for a need and people are easy going. Mayberry, RFD style. It's a freer, less restrictive society. There will be those, especially off-worlders, who will take advantage but it is very rare. Even a Law Level 0 world will take action to crimes, what security force there is may go from unarmed to batons or, in really bad situations, ranged weapons. They still may use the least force necessary. The attitude is ranges of do what you want just don't harm others. You notice law level is dependent on government level so more restrictive governments do mean more restrictive enforcement. You can still have Law Level 0 on a Feudal technocracy on a world with tens of billions of beings.

 

[Condottiere]

You can range from the state monopolizing violence, to parish arbitration, to free for all, though I doubt that will happen.

It's likely that people will cluster into clans.

 

[Reynard]

Saw a news report on tv a little while ago. Two guys seen on camera shooting at each other, 20 shots from both. A child sitting on stairs was struck. It's becoming so common in Philadelphia the victims are referred to as "mushrooms", street slang for an innocent bystander who pops up in the line of fire. So yeah, if there's people in the line of fire they can become accidental targets. I'm not saying you must do collateral but in real life it does happen. Action films love property damage and collateral victims.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If there is no law, there is no government,

Law level 0 does not mean no law, it means low law. Weapons are not forbidden, but laws against murder or theft might still be enforced.

In The Spinward Marches there are 33 systems with Law Level 0, most of them with Government other than 0.

In the real world, e.g. the USA spent quite a few decades without banning weapons. I would consider it a stretch to say that the US did not have a government before 1934 when fully automatic weapons were banned.

 

[fusor]

You have to work forward from the Pop UWP digit, not backwards from the Law digit:

If there is no Population, there is no Government (or Law, or Tech Level). The world is Barren.

If there is Population (1+. I think MGT modified Pop 1 to mean 1-99 people, not 10-99 as it was before), there can be Government (up to Gov 6), but there's more likely to be "No Government" (Gov 0, as in 'clans or families only').

If there's Gov 0, there can be Law levels (up to Law 5), but it's more likely to be Law 0.

 

[-Daniel-]

You have to work forward from the Pop UWP digit, not backwards from the Law digit:

If there is no Population, there is no Government (or Law, or Tech Level). The world is Barren.

If there is Population (1+. I think MGT modified Pop 1 to mean 1-99 people, not 10-99 as it was before), there can be Government (up to Gov 6), but there's more likely to be "No Government" (Gov 0, as in 'clans or families only').

If there's Gov 0, there can be Law levels (up to Law 5), but it's more likely to be Law 0.

This is a much better way to look at it. :mrgreen:

 

[Spartan159]

Ah! This conversation reminded me that in World Builders Handbook, it had an optional legal profile on page 82, divided into Overall (the world UWP), Weapons, Trade, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Personal Freedom. Specific levels were found by rolling 2D-7+ government. So by that a Law Level 0 world with Government 1 could have law levels as high as 6. Personally I would state that since the basic Traveller Law Level stat is by definition tied to weapons that weapons do not need a separate category.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

If there is no law, there is no government,

Law level 0 does not mean no law, it means low law. Weapons are not forbidden, but laws against murder or theft might still be enforced.

In The Spinward Marches there are 33 systems with Law Level 0, most of them with Government other than 0.

In the real world, e.g. the USA spent quite a few decades without banning weapons. I would consider it a stretch to say that the US did not have a government before 1934 when fully automatic weapons were banned.

So does a law level deal only with weapons and nothing else?