Cimmeria book cover is sweet!

[LucaCherstich]

Are you sure?
Clearly REH put Hyborean peoples as origins of modern peoples but when he created the Hyborean people he looks like to start from generic ideas which are then modified with bits of different flavours and ideas.
Somewhere I read a mention to a kind of letter written by REH (maybe the itroduction to the centenary edition of the REH Conan tales? I will check it...) that REH wanted the people of his Hyborean Age to be a mix different cultures and ages without being exactly the cultures we know. This expedient let REH write Conan stories in different time and periods without having to concern too much on historical coherence (he was well aware of his academic limits).
E.g. If you think Aquilonia=France the Aquilonia in Wolves beyond the border is not the same Aquilonia of Hour of the Dragon. OR BETTER:, in other terms, it is the same Aquilonia but the first has NOTHING to do with the equation Aquilonia=France but more with Aquilonia=a kind of British Empire, an expedient which allowed REH to have Conan adventures in places like British Colonies in America ("Wolves beyond the border") and Medieval Europe ("Hour of the Dragon").

And the Verse: "....But the proudest kingdom of the world was Aquilonia, reigning supreme in the dreaming west..." Does not sounds at least, A BIT, like the Roman Empire?

Countries of the Hyborean Age are loosely correspondent to Real World countries but their cultures is often a mixed one.

Do you want another proof?
You said:

Nordheimers are the Vikings, the Cimmerians are the Gaels, the Turanians are the Ottoman Turks

Yes, more or less you are right, BUT I say:
1)
Nordheimers DO NOT sail on the sea pillaging civilized coast villages, they look more like the Viking/German gods (as their ethnic names suggest).

2)
Cimmerians are always quiet and melencholic (the opposite one would expect from a Celt) and bear a name of a people which (according to Herodotus) was relative to the Scythians (post-Hyrkanians??), dwelt north of Crimea (an unlikely Celtic setting) in a dark land where the sun is not so shiny (looks like Cimmeria...)...but to such elements REH mixed the celtic element (the name "Conan" for example).

3)
Turanians are described with words which derive from both Mongol background ("Khan") and Iranian background ("Shah", "Satrapies"). Yes, they look like Ottomans ... but they are not Ottomans at all, as long as Aquilonians look like Medieval Europeans (I would not stress the "France" element) but they are not just Medieval Europeans.

I think this is the real beauty of Hyborean Age.
I can find everywhere something that recalls what I've studied at school (and this give me the feeling to play in a realistic world) but it is not just a mirror of reality and this, to me, means that Hyborean Age looks always realistic and fantastic at the same time.

On the other hand, if you want to overstress the link Hyborean Age - Reality the risk is to get a setting like Warhammer which, at least to me, is a terribly boring place with not so much novelty but the occasional arrival of demons and undead. But maybe this is just me.

 

[kintire]

Clearly REH put Hyborean peoples as origins of modern peoples but when he created the Hyborean people he looks like to start from generic ideas which are then modified with bits of different flavour.
Somewhere I read a mention to a kind of letter written by REH (maybe the itroduction to the centenary edition of the REH Conan tales? I will check it...) that REH wanted the people of his Hyborean Age to be a mix different cultures and ages without being exactly the cultures we know. This expedient let write Conan stories in different time and periods without having to concern too much on historical coherence (he was well aware of his academic limits).

Howard's roots were as a writer of historical and wierd fiction (and boxing tales). A large proportion of his output is historical fiction set in various places around the world including the American West, the North West Frontier and Afghanistan. He also did a cycle of wierd fiction, a few of which were also historical. Perhaps the central plank of this body of work is a whole cycle of tales about the resurgance of Islam after the defeats of the First Crusade, beginning with a tale set around the fall of Edessa and concluding with one about the repulse of Suleiman the Magnificent from Vienna.

The problem he had was threefold. First, he had limited control over what happened, and who the central characters were. As a writer of historical fiction, he had to stick at least credibly close to history, and he couldn't make his heroes the main characters in events, because famous historical figures were already there. Second, he had to have a different hero for each period, because, for example, Cormac Fitzgeoffry would have been dead of old age for centuries by the time of the siege of Vienna. Finally, because the events he was writing about were often fairly well documented he had to be careful with the wierder elements.

The Hyborian Age solved all these problems. He could tell many of the same tales, with his hero as a central character in all of them and as much wierdness as he chose to throw in, and he was completely emancipated from any necessity to fit in to historical fact. Its a brilliant solution.

Of course, he was free to make his own changes, and as a result none of the countries fit exactly. For example, in real medieval history probably the three most formidable forces in warfare were the French chivalric heavy cavalry, the English longbowmen and the Swiss pikemen. No one ever fielded these three forces in one army, but by God if they had world conquest wouldn't have looked so unlikely. Well, Aquilonia has. The Aquilonian knights, the Bossonian longbowmen and the Gunderland pikes are the army Medieval Europe should have had but never did!

But of course medieval Europe isn't allowed to have a proper army with infantry and stuff, so any army with effective infantry obviously has to be Roman. Bah!

Nordheimers DO NOT sail on the sea pillaging civilized coast villages, they look more like the Viking/German gods (as their ethnic names suggest).

Its true, but that might just be because Howard never had a yen to write a Viking sailor tale in Hyboria! He was more interested in the northerners in battle anyway.

Cimmerians are always quiet and melencholic (the opposite one would expect from a Celt)

You haven't met many Scots then?

and bear a name of a people which (according to Herodotus) relative to the Scythians (post-Hyrkanians??), dwelt north of Crimea (an unlikely Celtic setting) in a dark land where the sun is not so shiny (looks like Cimmeria...)...but to such elements REH mixed the celtic element (the name "Conan" for example).

The Cimmerians were the earliest (known) name attached to the rather amorphous group of nomads who inhabited the european steppes from an early date. They were known in succession (and often overlapping) by many names including Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, Roxolani, Iazyges and so on. These names seem to represent changes in the dominance of individual tribes in a group as much as outside conquests: The last three names, for example, appear both as tribal names and as subtypes of Sarmatians. The transition between Cimmerian and Scythian seems to have been at least partly violent, as the Cimmerians (or a group of them) were driven from the steppes into Asia Minor, and another group into the Mesopotamia where they rampaged for a century or so.

This occurred in the 8th century BC, which is also right about the time the Celts emerged as a distinctive culture. Celtic and Cimmerian art have a lot of similarities, and there are a variety of other connections, not least the fact that both were famous for their horses and horseriding skills (The Cimmerians are credited by the Greeks with inventing horseback riding, and may well be the origin of the Centaurs). For a long time it was suggested that another group of Cimmerians had gone westward rather than south, and developed into the Celts. It is this theory that Howard has in mind when naming his "proto-Celts", and also why his Hyborian Age essay has them migrating across the world and conquering and occupying Turan. That kingdom is located roughly where the Cimmerians historically lived.

The "Celts = Cimmerians" theory still has some credence, although not in its simplistic form. The Hallstatt culture from which the Celts sprang has local roots, and we now have some very limited information about the Cimmerian language, which is not very supportive. Still, the explosion of Halstatt influence, growth in wealth and introduction of Iron are about at the right time, and the artistic similarites are very real. The Cimmerians may well have contributed to the formation of the Celts, even if a simple identification of one with the other isn't supportable any more.

On the other hand, if you want to overstress the link Hyborean Age - Reality the risk is to get a setting like Warhammer which, at least to me, is a terribly boring place with not so much novelty but the occasional arrival of demons and undead. But maybe this is just me.

On the other hand, if you throw in anything you like anywhere, you get a melange of blandness with no storng themes. But, maybe THAT'S just ME!

 

[LucaCherstich]

not everything you like, but elements which in the whole do not inficiate the realism of the ethnic.

 

[kintire]

I'm afraid I lost you there...

But if you mean what I think you mean, throwing Roman elements into high medieval goes too far for me.

 

[Old Bear]

The current look of Hyboria's nations should not be 'blamed' on Mongoose. The decision to change direction on some countries, most notably Aquilonia, was made several years ago by the owners of the license.

It's not a case of Mongoose 'succumbing'. They are doing what is required of them by the license. While I was there Matthew will tell you that I fervently argued against destroying the medieval flavour that Howard so clearly intended, but it was not our call to make.

Essentially the whole theme of Hyboria was notched back several hundred years in 'historical' terms, to give more of a Dark Ages feel, and Aquilonia is themed heavily on the late Roman Empire. IMHO this is totally wrong, even though I find the unfiorm designs amongst the finest I have ever seen conceived.

However, what I think doesn't count for anything, so unless anybody has the money to buy out the license they cannot influence it in any realistic way.

 

[Axerules]

In Beyond the Black River, Balthus sees Conan's horned helmet, which since it doesn't have a crest, Balthus assumes that it was not made in a Hyborian land. Thus we know that Hyborian (eg, Aquilonian) helmets did have crests normally. Besides, the above tale and Frost-Giants Daughter, Conan wore a horned helmet in Queen of the Black Coast.

Hey Kortoso: as I said above, in QotBC and TFGD Conan wears an AEsir "horned helmet"!

 

[Axerules]

I don't have much time right now to write everything I have in mind, so quickly:

*Luca:
Aquilonia reminds not only "Aquila", but also Aquitaine.

Aquilonian names are not "purely Roman". All (but one, Servius) are "greco-roman", ie: latinized versions of Greek names. So it's a poor excuse for "Aquilonia=Rome".

 

[LucaCherstich]

Many different things to answer and the discourse starts to be complicated and the issues are many.
I try to answer some of them, but I want to stress (as above) that my basic point is that THERE ARE correspondeces between the Hyborean Age (and not the bloody "Hyboria") and the real world but the nations of the Hyborean age ARE NOT just reflections of real world nations and peoples but were conceived with many different issues in mind and according to many influences that were used for REH's narrative concerns.

If one want to over-stress the similarities with the real world there a lot of problems which start already from the original tales by REH.
for example:

from The Scarlet Citadel:
What is the Real-world correspondent of Koth?
And why Ophir, which in the Bible is southern than Isreael, is so near to "European-like" nations (e.g. Aquilonia) and they are of the same (Hyborian) stock?

From Shadows in the Moonlight and Devil in Iron:
Why the Kozaks are the enemies of Turan (supposedly "Ottoman Empire") and not of a fake Russia?
A name like Jehungir Agha could suggest that Turanians are Ottoman Turks but why Shah Amurath bear an Iranian title? In any case why the persian word "satrapy" is used also elsewehere?

From Wolves beyond the border (and other tales):
And Why the Picts (the ancestors of the Picts of northern Scotland) behave like Native Americans?

From Hour of the Dragon (and other tales)
Why the Stygians (Egyptians) are ruled by a single over-powerful god (Set)???? This did not happen in real Egyptian pantheon.

From Red Nails:
And why some early savage Stygians (Egyptians or Libyans or Nubians) interbreeded with Eastern people to create the Tlazitlans (=kind of Aztecs)???


It is clear that the Hyborean Age CANNOT BE just a mirror of reality!!

Here a few answers to other posts:

For a long time it was suggested that another group of Cimmerians had gone westward rather than south, and developed into the Celts. It is this theory that Howard has in mind when naming his "proto-Celts", and also why his Hyborian Age essay has them migrating across the world and conquering and occupying Turan. That kingdom is located roughly where the Cimmerians historically lived.

Yeah, The only problem (as you can check in the essay "Hyborean Age" by REH) is that from Cimmeria the Cimmerians went soutward and eastward (to their final destination somewhere in Crimea) and not the opposite.
So we cannot check whether REH knew the theory you were talking about.

The "Celts = Cimmerians" theory still has some credence, although not in its simplistic form. The Hallstatt culture from which the Celts sprang has local roots, and we now have some very limited information about the Cimmerian language, which is not very supportive. Still, the explosion of Halstatt influence, growth in wealth and introduction of Iron are about at the right time, and the artistic similarites are very real. The Cimmerians may well have contributed to the formation of the Celts, even if a simple identification of one with the other isn't supportable any more.

Yes, you are right that a simple indentification is difficult.
Furthermore similarities in material culture do not absolutely mean similarities in ethnicity (as discussed by zillions of books on ethnicity & archaeology).
And furthermore REH was not a competent Archaeologist and/or Historian and/or Anthrpologist....and even if we want to suppose he had the academic knowledge of a scholar he had to refer to the academic knowledge of the early 20th century....and as far as I know archaeology/antrhopology course teach stuff more recent than Gordon Childe...

Hey Kortoso: as I said above, in QotBC and TFGD Conan wears an AEsir "horned helmet"!

In fact REH believed vikings to wear such helmets.

Aquilonia reminds not only "Aquila", but also Aquitaine.

It could remind whatever you want but, as discussed above, while the "medieval flavour" in Aquilonia could be prevalent, there is a sum of other influences in different stories, as discussed above.

Aquilonian names are not "purely Roman". All (but one, Servius) are "greco-roman", ie: latinized versions of Greek names. So it's a poor excuse for "Aquilonia=Rome".

NO, I do not use the argument "Roman names" or "latinized Greek name".
And if I want to use it, it should argue that the presence of latinizes greek names support an equation Aquilonia:Rome.
Latinized Greek names were widely used (check numerous names of the Late Roman Emporors from 3rd or 4th century AD onwards, e.g. Arcadius...) while in Medieval France such names are hardly so numerous.....
But I'M NOT USING THEM TO SUPPORT ANY EQUATION AQUILONIA=LATE ROMAN EMPIRE.
As a I said above I feel that Aquilonia cannot be equated only with Medieval France as long as it cannot be equated only with Rome.
A number of influences were acting in the creation of Aquilonia.
I DO NOT EXCLUDE that the "Medieval" element was preponderant in the concept of Aquilonia (especially in Hour of the Dragon) but a number of other elements (including the late Roman one) helped REH to shape the idea of Aquilonia.

 

[The King]

It is good and sweat to talk about the cover but when does the book show up?

 

[kintire]

that my basic point is that THERE ARE correspondeces between the Hyborean Age (and not the bloody "Hyboria")

I realise that Howard never used it, but "Hyboria" is actually a perfectly reasonable collective term for the Hyborian kingdoms. Not for the whole world of course.

the nations of the Hyborean age ARE NOT just reflections of real world nations and peoples but were conceived with many different issues in mind and according to many influences that were used for REH's narrative concerns.

This is true, but the nations are (usually) reflections of periods and regions. For example, Aquilonia does not fit as any single nation, it is a France/England/Switzerland cross. Nemedia spends much of the Hour of the Dragon playing France to Aquilonia's England (at least in battles) but also has elements of the Holy Roman Empire (the Nemedian Adventurers, for example, look and sound a lot like the Landsknechts). But you do not generally get elements of totally different cultures, except as foreigners or mercenaries.

It is clear that the Hyborean Age CANNOT BE just a mirror of reality!!

As I said, the Hyborean Age developed its own momentum. But most of the "problems" you raise above are either errors, eg:

Why the Stygians (Egyptians) are ruled by a single over-powerful god (Set)???? This did not happen in real Egyptian pantheon.

Actually it did: Horus, Ra and Osiris all held this position. But this situation is a reference to the egyptian myth of the seizure of power by Set, and his eventual partial overthrow by Horus. Of course, Howard has confused Set and Apep, but that's another story.

or irrelevant eg:

And why some early savage Stygians (Egyptians or Libyans or Nubians) interbreeded with Eastern people to create the Tlazitlans (=kind of Aztecs)???

No one is suggesting that the whole history of the Hyborian Age is equivalent to reality. The cultures that exist in Conan's day are similar to real world cultures so that Howard can tell yarns set in those cultures, but they didn't come about, or depart, the same way.

Yeah, The only problem (as you can check in the essay "Hyborean Age" by REH) is that from Cimmeria the Cimmerians went soutward and eastward (to their final destination somewhere in Crimea) and not the opposite.
So we cannot check whether REH knew the theory you were talking about.

No, the Cimmerians I refer to in the quote above who went westward are the REAL Cimmerians. And we can check whether Howard knew the theory, because that is why the FICTIONAL Cimmerians headed south and east, so that they would end up where the real Cimmerians start from.

Yes, you are right that a simple indentification is difficult.
Furthermore similarities in material culture do not absolutely mean similarities in ethnicity (as discussed by zillions of books on ethnicity & archaeology).

Indeed. Which makes it very difficult to trace what is going on in prehistoric times, because without written sources we cannot reliably trace ethnicity without a clearly distinct material culture, and even then it's shaky.

And furthermore REH was not a competent Archaeologist and/or Historian and/or Anthrpologist....and even if we want to suppose he had the academic knowledge of a scholar he had to refer to the academic knowledge of the early 20th century....and as far as I know archaeology/antrhopology course teach stuff more recent than Gordon Childe...

He was not a professional scholar, but he was very well informed. he had written a lot of historical fiction, and he had clearly done his research.

But I'M NOT USING THEM TO SUPPORT ANY EQUATION AQUILONIA=LATE ROMAN EMPIRE.
As a I said above I feel that Aquilonia cannot be equated only with Medieval France as long as it cannot be equated only with Rome.
A number of influences were acting in the creation of Aquilonia.
I DO NOT EXCLUDE that the "Medieval" element was preponderant in the concept of Aquilonia (especially in Hour of the Dragon) but a number of other elements (including the late Roman one) helped REH to shape the idea of Aquilonia.

With respect, what ARE you using to support the idea that Aquilonia had Roman influences? I can't see any.

Old Bear

The current look of Hyboria's nations should not be 'blamed' on Mongoose. The decision to change direction on some countries, most notably Aquilonia, was made several years ago by the owners of the license.

It's not a case of Mongoose 'succumbing'. They are doing what is required of them by the license. While I was there Matthew will tell you that I fervently argued against destroying the medieval flavour that Howard so clearly intended, but it was not our call to make.

I daresay that's true, and you may notice that I have avoided placing any blame on Mongoose. But all we punters can do is comment on the product we get. Also, you say that the license requires you to do Aquilonia = Rome, but the actual sourcebook on Aquilonia seems to avoid that and produces a solid medieval version. Or should I be staying stumm about that?

 

[Nasir6]

As usually all these problems with the Conan world are due because we all (consciously or uncosciously) mix 4 different levels of reality:

1)
the Real World according to what we know now after the most recent scholarship (e.g. today we all know that Vikings did not bear horned helms and we all know that ethnicity is a social costruct more than o product of race).

2)
the Real World as was perceived by Howard in the 1920s (e.g. the story "Kings of the Night" where blond vikings bear horned helms, Roman celts auxiliaries from Gallia are blond and celts from Ireland are dark).

3)
the Hyborian Age as perceived by Howard when he mixes different elements from different cultural backgrounds creating the people of the Hyborian Age (e.g. the proto-celt cimmerian Conan wearing a horned helmet which REH believed to be typical of vikings, he gave such helmet to Conan just to picture him as a barbarian).

4)
the Hyborian Age AFTER the death of Howard.
REH did not desribe any detail of the Hyborian Age and in these 80 years Conanesque (or "pastiche") books, comics, movies, cartoons and (why not?) rpgs added a LOT of elements not detailed by Howard (e.g. the Roman-like appearance of Aquilonian soldiers, not just from the Drak Horse comics but already from a few old issues of the Savage Word of Conan in the '80s).

What's the solution for the purist?
My opinion is NOT to be purist but to accept all the cultural items one likes as long as one get fun from them.
The stories by REH did not detail all of the Hyborean Age and many of the REH peoples are just mixtures of different cultures (e.g. Kothians, Zamorians, etc...) so mixing more details is not wrong in itself, as long as one get fun and (to me) do not contradict too much what REH said.
Regarding the relationship Aquilonia-Rome my feelings are these:
In Hour of the Dragon Aquilonia is clearly a feudal, medieval-like kingdom but, to me, making the equation Aquilonia = Holy Roman Empire or Plantegenet England or Angeuvine France is simply WRONG.
As said above, REH mixes different elements from different epochs and times, in order to get new, different people, especially regarding the Hyborian Kingdoms (who know which is the exact parallel in the real-world of Koth? Nobody!!).
This attitude permitted REH to have diferent kinds of adventures in the same Hyborean Age.
Aquilonia is the perfect example of this mixture of inspirations.
It is clearly a feudal-like country (with the barons, etc.) but in the stories on the Aquilonian colonies along the Pictish border like "beyond the Black river" Aquilonia is clearly similar to the British Empire in the 18th century and its relationship with the colonies in America.
But the concept of Aquilonia includes also bits of Roman flavour or, more specifically, of the Late Roman Empire (3rd century AD - 5th century AD) or of, at least, how the Late Roman Empire was evisaged in the early 20th century.
For example:
1)
The name itself of Aquilonia recalls Roman feelings (the symbol fo the Eagle=Aquila in latin).

2)
Numerous latin-like names (e.g. Epimetreus).

3)
A series of immoral kings (=emperors), mostly murdered and at the end a barbarian king (which recall the Illyrian general-emperors of the 3rd century AD or the Romano-barbaric kingdoms of the 6th century AD).

4)
A "decadent" feeling of the pre-Conan Aquilonia which certainly recall the idea which people had in the early 20th century of the Late Roman empire.

5)
The Role of Mitra in teh Hyborian Kingdom which recall teh role of Christian Religion in the Post-Constantine Roman Empire.

6)
The clear difference from Nemedia (which is supposedly a Greek-like country which Aquilonia shouldbe a Latin-like country)

7)
The particularly complex mixture of ethnicities of the Aquilonian kingdom (Gundermen, Poitanians, Bossonians, Taurans, etc...) which definitevely recall the Roman Empire. REH does not seem to mention a similar complexity for Nemedia (at least in Hour of the Dragon, where nemedians appear quite often) or in any other Hyborian kingdom.

SO, Aquilonia = Late Roman Empire?

The Answer: NO, it is just that REH liked to mix things.
So why we cannot do the same in our games?

You hit the nail on the head, there. I knew Aquilonia was suppose to have a technology and society level on par with medieval Europe, but just portraying them as Roman-esque with horse-hair helmets just seems a really neat twist.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I think that the Romanesque and Dark age influences currently in use are excellent. These, to my mind, make it more believable as a possible prehistory. I think that games that use standard Feudal and High Mediaeval imagery do not portray the true feeling of antiquity which I find preferable in my Conan games.
Oddly enough though, I have no issue with the Saracen/Ottoman feel of the Turanians at all. I guess that is because they are sufficiently exotic enough to my players and I(coming from Western Europe).
I think that the Roman Empire thing comes from the "Hyborian age" essay where REH makes reference on three separate occasions to "legions".

 

[kintire]

I think that the Roman Empire thing comes from the "Hyborian age" essay where REH makes reference on three separate occasions to "legions".

That IS true, although I still feel its overridden by all the stuff from Hour of the Dragon. I suspect that legions refers to large numbers, but it's a fact that legions as a word are associated with Rome, so that is one thing.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I will never explain enough that for me Aquilonia is Medieval-like but the "Roman" influnces are all too clear.
Shall I say 70% Medieval 30% Roman?
Or maybe it is better to stop the discussion and listen to this man:

It is good and sweat to talk about the cover but when does the book show up?

YES, I really want to know when it will be finally published.
The Preview of Cimmeria ( http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conancimmeriapre.pdf ) looks interesting, although I'm not sure I like a woman leading a Cimmerian clan or the ecologist feeling of following paragraph: "Neither do we waste. Waste is an insult to the Earth and the Ancestors! We eat, or find a use, for everything we hunt. We honour what nature provides and do not squander it. It brings tears to the eyes and heart to see the waste in the cities. If you are not prepared to use something to its full then leave it alone."
What do we have? Cimmerian Greenpeace?
I'm not sure REH would understand (or like) that vision of Cimmerians.
Please, do not look at me as a macho-fascist enemy of the earth (I'm rather the opposite).
It is just the paragraph does not match my idea of Cimmerians.

And when will we see Cities of Hyboria?

 

[Old Bear]

I don't see the Cimmerians as PC treehuggers either. Whether or not they had women warleaders is open to debate, based as much on a lack of evidence, but throughout Conan's career I seem to recall his personal preference was for wine, women and song, not some half-baked eco-theory.

 

[The King]

The Preview of Cimmeria ( http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/conancimmeriapre.pdf ) looks interesting, although I'm not sure I like a woman leading a Cimmerian clan or the ecologist feeling of following paragraph: "Neither do we waste. Waste is an insult to the Earth and the Ancestors! We eat, or find a use, for everything we hunt. We honour what nature provides and do not squander it. It brings tears to the eyes and heart to see the waste in the cities. If you are not prepared to use something to its full then leave it alone."
What do we have? Cimmerian Greenpeace?
I'm not sure REH would understand (or like) that vision of Cimmerians.
Please, do not look at me as a macho-fascist enemy of the earth (I'm rather the opposite).
It is just the paragraph does not match my idea of Cimmerians.

:lol:

In fact this way of life is very like the one of the Native American tribes or any tribes which has strong ties (both spiritual and physical) with nature. They would thus never kill more bisons than their tribes needed, first to preserve their food source (if you kill to much in a herd it may feel threatened and will avoid this region as being to dangerous), then to avoid the hatred of specific spirits.
For example, a dead buffalo had several purposes: food (meat), tools (bones), clothes and shelter (skins), etc.

This is also a typical behaviour where food is scarce because if you eat all the fishes of a lake or if you soil it how will you do to feed your tribe the next time? This is a part of the wisdom of the elders.

 

[Karasu]

I don't see the Cimmerians as PC treehuggers either. Whether or not they had women warleaders is open to debate, based as much on a lack of evidence, but throughout Conan's career I seem to recall his personal preference was for wine, women and song, not some half-baked eco-theory.

Well Conan is an atypical cimmerian, especially regarding this behavior, imo it fits(considering not just reh stories, but later books as well), except the tears part
and i can't wait for this book, looking forward to it for months

 

[WeakAsAKhitan]

REH may not have given examples of female Cimmerian war-leaders, but a loose historical precedent might be Queen Boudica. She made appearances in Slaine. Oh, and a poem by Tennyson. Sure, she had special circumstances, but if Conan is an typicical Cimmerian...

 

[Violetsaber]

I agree, I had a large question mark appear over my head at the "kill an animal and use every part of it for something" bit, too. That's a very Native American motto, and the Cimmerians are not based off the Native Americans. For many intents and purposes, the Picts are.

Honestly, the number of animals Conan kills is quite high, including lions, spiders, ape-like creatures, and more. Despite all this, I have a hard time remembering a single time he proceeded to stop and use ANY part of the felled beast for anything. Personally I'm going to advise my players to disregard that paragraph if they like, as it seems one of our tree-hugging authors got a little ahead of himself.

Not that I see Conan as the kind to randomally kill a whole plain full of beasts for the heck of it, but seriously - the whole speech seems quite out of place.

 

[KemperBoyd]

I agree, I had a large question mark appear over my head at the "kill an animal and use every part of it for something" bit, too. That's a very Native American motto, and the Cimmerians are not based off the Native Americans. For many intents and purposes, the Picts are.

Honestly, the number of animals Conan kills is quite high, including lions, spiders, ape-like creatures, and more. Despite all this, I have a hard time remembering a single time he proceeded to stop and use ANY part of the felled beast for anything. Personally I'm going to advise my players to disregard that paragraph if they like, as it seems one of our tree-hugging authors got a little ahead of himself.

Not that I see Conan as the kind to randomally kill a whole plain full of beasts for the heck of it, but seriously - the whole speech seems quite out of place.

It's perfectly understandable from the POV of any hunter-gatherer society or society which relys a lot on hunting. It's even in the barbaric code of honor: never kill animals for sport. Kill them because there's a use for them or because they attack you, but never just for sport.

And as far as Native Americans go, the initial migrants to the American continent hunted most of the large animals to extinction. After that, being careful about wasting game is a must