Cimmeria book cover is sweet!
- Thread starter flatscan
- Start date
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
Yup! 
I've known about it for some time now. Let's hope the contents are just as kewl. Any word about a Table of Contents?
I've known about it for some time now. Let's hope the contents are just as kewl. Any word about a Table of Contents?
Violetsaber
Mongoose
I wholeheartedly agree, that's probably my favorite cover art I've seen on any of the Conan books. I'm not sure who the artist is, but I hope they do more art for the exterior (and interior) of future Conan books. I would guess this is the same person who made the cover for the Road of Kings, because there is the same attention for detail there, as well.
I must admit I'm looking forward more to the Khitai book - but then the cover art for that one is probably the most random and simplistic of all the covers I've seen.
Does anyone wish the same care and detail done for the covers was also used on a few more of the interior illustrations? On the one hand, the detailed paintings probably cost more, but on the other hand most of the pictures inside the Conan books are kind of a simplistic pen-and-ink. Even a little more effort with the shading would kinda be nice...
Just an idea.
I must admit I'm looking forward more to the Khitai book - but then the cover art for that one is probably the most random and simplistic of all the covers I've seen.
Does anyone wish the same care and detail done for the covers was also used on a few more of the interior illustrations? On the one hand, the detailed paintings probably cost more, but on the other hand most of the pictures inside the Conan books are kind of a simplistic pen-and-ink. Even a little more effort with the shading would kinda be nice...
Just an idea.
Violetsaber said:
Well sure, I'd love it if Chris Quilliams could do every cover (although he has done a lot of them, my favorite being the Aquilonia cover) and interior art but there's no way Mongoose has the budget to make those commissions.
Two things:
1) IMO the cover is really beautiful.
I guess it was done by C. Quilliams. I praised his work over and over again.
2) But, IMHO this one has waaay too much wrong details.
It is supposed to be a picture of the battle of Venarium, right?
So why does a warrior wear an horned helmet? Is he a Cimmerian or just a Nordheimer passing by?
Why on earth are the Cimmerians fighting against Roman Legionaries? Mitra! Aquilonia is mostly medieval.
And last but not least, by all Crom's devils why is the bearded Cimmerian not black-haired? Since when does Conan's ilk include red-headed guys?
Once again, I think it's a very beautiful cover.
IMO as a depiction of REH's Hyborian Age, it sucks.
1) IMO the cover is really beautiful.
I guess it was done by C. Quilliams. I praised his work over and over again.
2) But, IMHO this one has waaay too much wrong details.
It is supposed to be a picture of the battle of Venarium, right?
So why does a warrior wear an horned helmet? Is he a Cimmerian or just a Nordheimer passing by?
Why on earth are the Cimmerians fighting against Roman Legionaries? Mitra! Aquilonia is mostly medieval.
And last but not least, by all Crom's devils why is the bearded Cimmerian not black-haired? Since when does Conan's ilk include red-headed guys?
Once again, I think it's a very beautiful cover.
IMO as a depiction of REH's Hyborian Age, it sucks.
Axerules said:
Horned Helm- I know, that one is a tad off, but it could be rationalized (if you read the comics) that it's looted from a Nordheimer or that it's Conan's original helmet (if you follow Dark Horse's storyline)
Roman Legionaries- Whenever I've seen Aqulonian military, they've had horse-hair helmets. Also, Romans (at least last time I checked) still had the horse-hair helmets around the time the Huns invaded. Don't quote me on that, though.
Red-headed Cimmerian- He could be mixed Vanir and Cimmerian. A non-canon character known as Kern Wolfeye apparently is Red-headed but Cimmerian, due to the fact that his dad (via rape from my understanding) was either Vanir or Ymirish (also, don't quote me on that)
At least this is what I think. Depends on how much of a stickler for canon versus artistic license you are. It could very well be that the cover is inspired more by the comics than the original REH stories.
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
*Ahem*
The Vikings did NOT wear horned helmets. Common myth according to my Archaeology prof in university.
The ancient Celts did (at least on occasion, judging by artefacts), e.g. the Thames, Waterloo Bridge Helmet in the British Museum.
And, you're right, who in the world would portray Hyborian Proto-Celts as red-headed?!?! The nerve! :wink: :lol:
The Vikings did NOT wear horned helmets. Common myth according to my Archaeology prof in university.
The ancient Celts did (at least on occasion, judging by artefacts), e.g. the Thames, Waterloo Bridge Helmet in the British Museum.
And, you're right, who in the world would portray Hyborian Proto-Celts as red-headed?!?! The nerve! :wink: :lol:
Very funny post, Yogah. But totally irrelevant to this discussion.Yogah of Yag said:
I didn't learn anything. I already knew all this, man.
Yogah, please tell me who talked about historical Vikings? Not me!
I talked about Nordheimers, who, according to REH wore "horned helmets". Re-read The Frost Giant's Daughter. Or Queen of the Black Coast: "His horned helmet was such as was worn by the golden-haired AEsir of Nordheim".
And I hope no one seriously argues that during the Hyborian Age (I'm not talking about the real world but about an imaginary one, created by REH), Cimmerians are not supposed to be black-haired? :roll:
THA: "the Cimmerians are tall and powerful, with dark hair and blue or grey eyes"
Der Rote Baron
Mongoose
Plus - at least that's what my Irish English teacher in Dublin told me - red-haired Irish are basically along since the Norse invasion of Ireland. Before that REH was pretty accurated with portraying the original Celts as pretty much dark-haired and fair skinned. Of course, in the real world you have all kinds of people looking numbeous ways: For instance I am fair skinned and red-haired as is all of my family (red-haired or reddish blond) - with the noticable exeption of my grandfather from my father's side who was black-haired and rarther dark skinned for a German. People in the 40s and 50s sometimes thought he was Italian (or so I was told). Had the very un-Italian name of Dietrich, nicknamed "Siegfried" (he was a pretty good amateur boxer/ wrestler, hence the nick).
So, no problems with the "odd" red-haired Cimmerian. Aquilonian legionaires ... well. That's a little of the line. But it's a kick-ass picture so I don't really care!
So, no problems with the "odd" red-haired Cimmerian. Aquilonian legionaires ... well. That's a little of the line. But it's a kick-ass picture so I don't really care!
Here's the cover untouched:
http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=113134
And some comments on the cover by the artist Chris Quilliams:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34417&highlight=cimmeria
8)
http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=113134
And some comments on the cover by the artist Chris Quilliams:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34417&highlight=cimmeria
8)
Mongoose_Will
Mongoose
The Cimmeria cover is pretty good, it also has another updated version but dont worry its still the same artwork just some layout changes, look at cities of hyboria for a taste of what to expect, nothing major.
added the interior work is not that bad (for cimmeria), check out the preview pdf.
added the interior work is not that bad (for cimmeria), check out the preview pdf.
I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to this. It is, of course, a fact that Aquilonia is a high medieval western Europen state mostly. However, for some reason, possibly the fact that a couple of it's citizens have names ending in "-us", a brain bug has infected a large part of the publishers that Aquilonia is Rome. Recent comics and computer games have been affected, and sadly it looks as if Mongoose has succumbed!
Its rather more complicated than that. The Celts had a number of ethnic strains. In Ireland, there was a tall fair haired "Classical Celt" type, and a shorter dark haires strand. Both were also represented in Britain. The fair haired type had a tendency to be associated with the nobility, but only a tendency: Ireland's greatest hero, Cuchulain, is described as dark haired. Most of the Continental Celts seem to have been of the fair haired persuasion. The red heads are indeed Norse derived.
Howard also gives the "Celts" a complicated pedigree: essentially the dark haired strains are descended from the Cimmerians, and the fair haired strains are descended from the Aesir, although mingled with Cimmerian blood and having adopted some Cimmerian culture (and vice versa). The Celts, especially the Irish, are also the only race to retain any significant Hyborian blood, via the Nemedian Aesir. Presumeably, that survival is how the Nemedian Chronicles have come down to us!
Mongoose_Will said:The Cimmeria cover is pretty good, it also has another updated version but dont worry its still the same artwork just some layout changes, look at cities of hyboria for a taste of what to expect, nothing major.
added the interior work is not that bad (for cimmeria), check out the preview pdf.
Indeed having now looked at it is was very good
All in all a good read as well - so will prob go on my list to buy - as it also looks rules lite............. :?:
Few minor errors in the pdf - spelling and such like and the spear of the Clan Chief seems to have two different names, but guess that will have been caught for release - looks a good book
Violetsaber
Mongoose
flatscan said:
Ooops, my mistake, that's the cover I meant. I knew they had to be the same artist, I just got the names of the books mixed up.
In Beyond the Black River, Balthus sees Conan's horned helmet, which since it doesn't have a crest, Balthus assumes that it was not made in a Hyborian land. Thus we know that Hyborian (eg, Aquilonian) helmets did have crests normally. Besides, the above tale and Frost-Giants Daughter, Conan wore a horned helmet in Queen of the Black Coast.
LucaCherstich
Mongoose
As usually all these problems with the Conan world are due because we all (consciously or uncosciously) mix 4 different levels of reality:
1)
the Real World according to what we know now after the most recent scholarship (e.g. today we all know that Vikings did not bear horned helms and we all know that ethnicity is a social costruct more than o product of race).
2)
the Real World as was perceived by Howard in the 1920s (e.g. the story "Kings of the Night" where blond vikings bear horned helms, Roman celts auxiliaries from Gallia are blond and celts from Ireland are dark).
3)
the Hyborian Age as perceived by Howard when he mixes different elements from different cultural backgrounds creating the people of the Hyborian Age (e.g. the proto-celt cimmerian Conan wearing a horned helmet which REH believed to be typical of vikings, he gave such helmet to Conan just to picture him as a barbarian).
4)
the Hyborian Age AFTER the death of Howard.
REH did not desribe any detail of the Hyborian Age and in these 80 years Conanesque (or "pastiche") books, comics, movies, cartoons and (why not?) rpgs added a LOT of elements not detailed by Howard (e.g. the Roman-like appearance of Aquilonian soldiers, not just from the Drak Horse comics but already from a few old issues of the Savage Word of Conan in the '80s).
What's the solution for the purist?
My opinion is NOT to be purist but to accept all the cultural items one likes as long as one get fun from them.
The stories by REH did not detail all of the Hyborean Age and many of the REH peoples are just mixtures of different cultures (e.g. Kothians, Zamorians, etc...) so mixing more details is not wrong in itself, as long as one get fun and (to me) do not contradict too much what REH said.
Regarding the relationship Aquilonia-Rome my feelings are these:
In Hour of the Dragon Aquilonia is clearly a feudal, medieval-like kingdom but, to me, making the equation Aquilonia = Holy Roman Empire or Plantegenet England or Angeuvine France is simply WRONG.
As said above, REH mixes different elements from different epochs and times, in order to get new, different people, especially regarding the Hyborian Kingdoms (who know which is the exact parallel in the real-world of Koth? Nobody!!).
This attitude permitted REH to have diferent kinds of adventures in the same Hyborean Age.
Aquilonia is the perfect example of this mixture of inspirations.
It is clearly a feudal-like country (with the barons, etc.) but in the stories on the Aquilonian colonies along the Pictish border like "beyond the Black river" Aquilonia is clearly similar to the British Empire in the 18th century and its relationship with the colonies in America.
But the concept of Aquilonia includes also bits of Roman flavour or, more specifically, of the Late Roman Empire (3rd century AD - 5th century AD) or of, at least, how the Late Roman Empire was evisaged in the early 20th century.
For example:
1)
The name itself of Aquilonia recalls Roman feelings (the symbol fo the Eagle=Aquila in latin).
2)
Numerous latin-like names (e.g. Epimetreus).
3)
A series of immoral kings (=emperors), mostly murdered and at the end a barbarian king (which recall the Illyrian general-emperors of the 3rd century AD or the Romano-barbaric kingdoms of the 6th century AD).
4)
A "decadent" feeling of the pre-Conan Aquilonia which certainly recall the idea which people had in the early 20th century of the Late Roman empire.
5)
The Role of Mitra in teh Hyborian Kingdom which recall teh role of Christian Religion in the Post-Constantine Roman Empire.
6)
The clear difference from Nemedia (which is supposedly a Greek-like country which Aquilonia shouldbe a Latin-like country)
7)
The particularly complex mixture of ethnicities of the Aquilonian kingdom (Gundermen, Poitanians, Bossonians, Taurans, etc...) which definitevely recall the Roman Empire. REH does not seem to mention a similar complexity for Nemedia (at least in Hour of the Dragon, where nemedians appear quite often) or in any other Hyborian kingdom.
SO, Aquilonia = Late Roman Empire?
The Answer: NO, it is just that REH liked to mix things.
So why we cannot do the same in our games?
1)
the Real World according to what we know now after the most recent scholarship (e.g. today we all know that Vikings did not bear horned helms and we all know that ethnicity is a social costruct more than o product of race).
2)
the Real World as was perceived by Howard in the 1920s (e.g. the story "Kings of the Night" where blond vikings bear horned helms, Roman celts auxiliaries from Gallia are blond and celts from Ireland are dark).
3)
the Hyborian Age as perceived by Howard when he mixes different elements from different cultural backgrounds creating the people of the Hyborian Age (e.g. the proto-celt cimmerian Conan wearing a horned helmet which REH believed to be typical of vikings, he gave such helmet to Conan just to picture him as a barbarian).
4)
the Hyborian Age AFTER the death of Howard.
REH did not desribe any detail of the Hyborian Age and in these 80 years Conanesque (or "pastiche") books, comics, movies, cartoons and (why not?) rpgs added a LOT of elements not detailed by Howard (e.g. the Roman-like appearance of Aquilonian soldiers, not just from the Drak Horse comics but already from a few old issues of the Savage Word of Conan in the '80s).
What's the solution for the purist?
My opinion is NOT to be purist but to accept all the cultural items one likes as long as one get fun from them.
The stories by REH did not detail all of the Hyborean Age and many of the REH peoples are just mixtures of different cultures (e.g. Kothians, Zamorians, etc...) so mixing more details is not wrong in itself, as long as one get fun and (to me) do not contradict too much what REH said.
Regarding the relationship Aquilonia-Rome my feelings are these:
In Hour of the Dragon Aquilonia is clearly a feudal, medieval-like kingdom but, to me, making the equation Aquilonia = Holy Roman Empire or Plantegenet England or Angeuvine France is simply WRONG.
As said above, REH mixes different elements from different epochs and times, in order to get new, different people, especially regarding the Hyborian Kingdoms (who know which is the exact parallel in the real-world of Koth? Nobody!!).
This attitude permitted REH to have diferent kinds of adventures in the same Hyborean Age.
Aquilonia is the perfect example of this mixture of inspirations.
It is clearly a feudal-like country (with the barons, etc.) but in the stories on the Aquilonian colonies along the Pictish border like "beyond the Black river" Aquilonia is clearly similar to the British Empire in the 18th century and its relationship with the colonies in America.
But the concept of Aquilonia includes also bits of Roman flavour or, more specifically, of the Late Roman Empire (3rd century AD - 5th century AD) or of, at least, how the Late Roman Empire was evisaged in the early 20th century.
For example:
1)
The name itself of Aquilonia recalls Roman feelings (the symbol fo the Eagle=Aquila in latin).
2)
Numerous latin-like names (e.g. Epimetreus).
3)
A series of immoral kings (=emperors), mostly murdered and at the end a barbarian king (which recall the Illyrian general-emperors of the 3rd century AD or the Romano-barbaric kingdoms of the 6th century AD).
4)
A "decadent" feeling of the pre-Conan Aquilonia which certainly recall the idea which people had in the early 20th century of the Late Roman empire.
5)
The Role of Mitra in teh Hyborian Kingdom which recall teh role of Christian Religion in the Post-Constantine Roman Empire.
6)
The clear difference from Nemedia (which is supposedly a Greek-like country which Aquilonia shouldbe a Latin-like country)
7)
The particularly complex mixture of ethnicities of the Aquilonian kingdom (Gundermen, Poitanians, Bossonians, Taurans, etc...) which definitevely recall the Roman Empire. REH does not seem to mention a similar complexity for Nemedia (at least in Hour of the Dragon, where nemedians appear quite often) or in any other Hyborian kingdom.
SO, Aquilonia = Late Roman Empire?
The Answer: NO, it is just that REH liked to mix things.
So why we cannot do the same in our games?
You are perfectly correct that a simple Aquilonia = France comparison doesn't work. The dynamics between the nations are not the same. However, it is a fact that Howard drew inspiration from particular cultures and put them in particular areas. Part of the point of the Hyborian Age originally was to be able to tell his historical tales with a single hero, and although the Hyborian age developed its own momentum and identity, there is still a very real sense in which the Nordheimers are the Vikings, the Cimmerians are the Gaels, the Turanians are the Ottoman Turks, and so on. Each area has a very strong theme to it.
The Hyborian kingdoms are medieval Western Europe. There is no element in them in the Howard tales which did not derive from that basis: yes, even the Latinised names. He even describes their arms and equipment using technical terms referring to medieval armour. The only exception is the Bossonian Marches, where he derives a good deal of the basis from frontiersmen vs the Indians tales. No part of it is Roman!
The Hyborian kingdoms are medieval Western Europe. There is no element in them in the Howard tales which did not derive from that basis: yes, even the Latinised names. He even describes their arms and equipment using technical terms referring to medieval armour. The only exception is the Bossonian Marches, where he derives a good deal of the basis from frontiersmen vs the Indians tales. No part of it is Roman!
