changes to BRP system?

[atgxtg]

I agree, hence my statement in an earlier post that my Stormbringer players quickly learned to ambush, dodge, use missile weapons, gang up, and generally do whatever was necessary to avoid a one on one slugfest. Those get you killed fast, no matter how good you are. Like my pet assassin. This ain't D&D, folks. Even at low levels...

I know, most gamers who don't play in systems with increasing HP have to quickly learn that. THe D&D combat model of two characters trading attacks with lethal weapons until one drops isn't very ture to life---or even to cinematic combat, where one solid hit tends to end the fight.

The goal is to hit the enemy hard and fast, so that they cannot hit you hard and fast. Like you said, one on one slugfest tend to get you killed. In RQ, no matter how inept the opponent, there is always a slight chance that they will roll a critical hit and that it will get past your defenses and kill you.


RQ is not a "four encounters per day" sort of RPG.

 

[andakitty]

Heh. My friends said I had quite an interesting look on my face when the assassin NPC bought it. But the deadliness of the combat makes for a very exciting and satisfying gaming experience on both sides of the table.

 

[atgxtg]

Heh. My friends said I had quite an interesting look on my face when the assassin NPC bought it. But the deadliness of the combat makes for a very exciting and satisfying gaming experience on both sides of the table.

One incident that stands as an example for my RPG group occured many years ago in a Stormbringer campaign. IN the adventure, the PCs were out to get this sorceror. THey were in a particularly clever mood that night, and instead of attacking him, they deiced to apply for the open guardsmen postions (the PCs were actually reponsible for creating the openings, but only they knew that). Since the PCs appeared qualified for the job, and were hired.

One day, the sorceror sent the PCs to town to buy a dog (Stormbringer players can guess what for). THe PCs returned with the dog. They then got the idea that the sorceror would be at his most vulnerable while he was busy with the summoning ceremony that he was prepping for. THe group attacked and killed the sorceror. In the process, they sort of accidentally "rescued" the dog, and ended up named the dog "rex", and adopted him as a pet/mascott.

Well, after looting the sorceror's tower, the "heroes" were on the way to town to sell off thier loot, when they were ambushed. THew foes were pretty poor (unintelligent Baboons), but the PCs couldn't roll to (literaly) save thier lives, while I, the GM was on a hot streak. Within a round or two the entire group was down and out.

Cue "Rex the Wonderdog". I figured that the dog would fight to protect it's new masters, and my hot streak worked to the dog's (and the group's) benefit. Before long the dog had killed some baboon and driven off the rest. Dice are funny. When the group recovered, they were rather pleased that they decided to keep the dog.

Strangelt enough, Rex managed to pull off this sort of stunt for about a year or so on an infrequent basis. When he was finally killed in battle, many of the players morned more for the dog that for the other player characters that died during the campaign.

 

[andakitty]

Yes, brother, I can see that you are indeed a veteran of that most chaotic of rpgs, Stormbringer.

But isn't it fun?

 

[atgxtg]

Yes, brother, I can see that you are indeed a veteran of that most chaotic of rpgs, Stormbringer.

But isn't it fun?

My regular group banned me from playing Melniboneans. Apparently, after p going from playing my D6 Star Wars Jedi on one night to playing my Stormbringer Melnibonean the next, I put half the group into shock becuase of the extreme shift in personalties. :shock:

 

[Archer]

Just that it is better to win the fight without being hit at all. As to how much damage a character can withstand BRP has always seemed a reasonable simulation...but remember, even a greatsword MAY only deliver 2 points. I guess the other thing I am implying is that it has to be a pretty solid hit. I've seen a pretty broad spectrum of results, and to tell you the truth 'one shot stops' seem fairly rare in my game even given the deadliness of the system. You may have a different experience, thouugh. Also, IN GENERAL, the more skilled combatant will win regardless of weapons used.

I never said that it was always the first one to strike that wins, just that the system often rewards those striking first (I might have phrased it poorly).

Yes, a great sword can do 2 points of damage. But it is rare. Average result of a 2d8, if I remember correctly, is 9. And then we have not added DB yet (if any).

I agree partially on the skill issue. A skilled character in BRP have a greater chance to win regardless of which weapon he uses. Mostly because he will hit more often.

 

[Archer]

The goal is to hit the enemy hard and fast, so that they cannot hit you hard and fast.

LOL, this is what I have been trying to say. In BRP, generally, the one who hits first has a greater chance of winning. However, you expressed much more direct to the point than I did.

Like you said, one on one slugfest tend to get you killed. In RQ, no matter how inept the opponent, there is always a slight chance that they will roll a critical hit and that it will get past your defenses and kill you.

Unless they are wearing heavy armour. Then they basically must use 2H weapon, or get a critical hit to even have a slight chance. Dagger (1d4+1) vs Plate armour (8 AP) comes to mind.

RQ is not a "four encounters per day" sort of RPG.

No, like most BRP games, it is at most an encounter per week sort of deal. A battle tends to leave characters incapacitated for long periods of time. So battle should be avoided, cheated in, etc. You learn to use every advantage you can get, just like andakitty said.

 

[andakitty]

You know, now that you got me to thinking about our Stormbringer games I'm pretty sure most of the PC's that died were killed by poison, not weapons. I remember one who was shot in the back (accidentally, by another member of the party). The arrow did 4 or 5 pts. of damage, the D20 contact poison was another matter. :roll:

 

[andakitty]

Gotta remember, Archer, I was running SB1. Full plate was variable at 1D10+2 points and I rarely allowed demon armor. It colors my perceptions a little.

 

[Turloigh]

One incident that stands as an example for my RPG group occured many years ago in a Stormbringer campaign. ... (snipped roleplaying goodness)

Strangelt enough, Rex managed to pull off this sort of stunt for about a year or so on an infrequent basis. When he was finally killed in battle, many of the players morned more for the dog that for the other player characters that died during the campaign.

:shock: This is ridiculously funny. :lol:

"Rex", on top of that! Was it a German shepherd? Oh, never mind...

 

[atgxtg]

:shock: This is ridiculously funny. :lol:

"Rex", on top of that! Was it a German shepherd? Oh, never mind...

It was justy as funny in play. I had a group that had played well and "succeded" in thier mission get taken out by a "throwaway" encounter-and then resuced by thier pet (with a 25% bite attack or somesuch).

Yup, Rex was a shepard. THat was the only dog mini I had at the time. Stats were good, for a dog (in part becuase the sorceror had the PCs buy a high quality dog for the sacrifice-something that literally came back to bite him on the @$$).

What really got the group going was that I always "open rolled" the combat. THe players knew I wasn't fudging things for the dog, it was just very lucky. Over time Rex did get better, but a dog is only going to get so good in comparion to a armored man or orther serious combatant.

 

[atgxtg]

LOL, this is what I have been trying to say. In BRP, generally, the one who hits first has a greater chance of winning. However, you expressed much more direct to the point than I did.

But that is generally true of real combat and ever RPG that has weapons capable of killing or disabling a foe with a single hit. But there are too many other factors to make first strike the most important thing.

Like you said, one on one slugfest tend to get you killed. In RQ, no matter how inept the opponent, there is always a slight chance that they will roll a critical hit and that it will get past your defenses and kill you.

Unless they are wearing heavy armour. Then they basically must use 2H weapon, or get a critical hit to even have a slight chance. Dagger (1d4+1) vs Plate armour (8 AP) comes to mind.

Well, first I did say a slight chance. Secondly, if you roll a critical with a dagger against an opponent wearing plate you don't just have a slight chance of doing injury, you have a almostg uanteeed chance of disabling a location or even killed the foe outright. A critical does max weapon damage (5). Since a dagger can impale this is increased to 10 points plus any damage bonus (typically +1D4 in RQ3). Now a crititical hit also bypasses any worn armor, so 10+ points of damage to a location is going to take a foe out of the fight.

RQ is not a "four encounters per day" sort of RPG.

No, like most BRP games, it is at most an encounter per week sort of deal. A battle tends to leave characters incapacitated for long periods of time. So battle should be avoided, cheated in, etc. You learn to use every advantage you can get, just like andakitty said.[/quote]


Sort of like real life, and most legendary stories and movies. You don't see stuff like "Monday Noon-Battle of Badon, Monday 4PM-Camlaaan".
I find that in RQ/BRP the winning side of a battle tends to come awayreatively unscathed. It is attrition games that leave everyone beat up.

RQ is designed to do a lot more than just fight. Fighting all the time is a good way to get killed.

What I am wondering is just what are you expecting?

 

[Archer]

What I am wondering is just what are you expecting?

Nothing special. I just would like to see a system where manouvering and tactics allows you to get the upper hand, and in the end allow you to win, not the usual "hitting the fastest and the hardests".

 

[Enpeze]

archer- Nothing special. I just would like to see a system where manouvering and tactics allows you to get the upper hand, and in the end allow you to win, not the usual "hitting the fastest and the hardests".

If you like such a playing style I can recommend the new WFRP 2. There you have such things you describe above. You have optional play on squares and lot of combat actions (defensive, feint etc.) WFRP2 its quite deadly (of course not so deadly as BRP) And the combatants have also a % Roll to hit.

 

[Cobra]

What I am wondering is just what are you expecting?

Nothing special. I just would like to see a system where manouvering and tactics allows you to get the upper hand, and in the end allow you to win, not the usual "hitting the fastest and the hardests".

I think the maneouvering and tactics are the tools that one uses to hit hard and fast. That said, I see your point and agree that combat is more entertaining when it isn't just a slugfest. My thinking is that you didn't quite word it that way to begin with and ended up trying to defend a point you weren't really trying to make. You should read more Sun Tsu. :wink:

Cobra

 

[atgxtg]

What I am wondering is just what are you expecting?

Nothing special. I just would like to see a system where manouvering and tactics allows you to get the upper hand, and in the end allow you to win, not the usual "hitting the fastest and the hardests".

But maneuvering and tactics do play a major part. It isn't just hitting hardest & fastest. You seem to be disregarding the importance of all the other aspects of combat, including defenses, cover, terrain, lighting, magic, and more.

Consider:
Missile weapons are the fastest, and among the hardest hitting weapons in the game, but have a hard time getting past shields or other cover. They also can leave the carrying open to melee if an opponent manages to close the distance.

2H weapons have good speed (SR) and hit hard, but do so as the expense of carrying a shield (leaving the character vulnerable to missile fire), requiring more room to use, and leaving the character in big trouble in an arm is hit.

Two weapons give a character mutiple attacks, for an increased chance of hurting an opponent, but suffer many of the disadvantages of 2H weapons.

Weapon & Shield gives the best overall defense, but is usually the slowest combination, and the one that inflicts the lowest damage.

Throw in RQ battle magic and things get even more interesting.



MRQ is supposedly going to make maneuvering more important in the course of a fight. I suspect there will be modifers for doing certain things in order to encourange maneuverability in combat. Probably something like how reatreating in GURPS gives a bonus to defense.

 

[Archer]

You should read more Sun Tsu. :wink:

Cobra

LOL, you probably are right. Or I should increase my writing and english skills, so that I better can easier just make the point with less confusion included.

Regarding MRQ, I wonder about tactics, what is possible with the rules?
Hitting them hard and fast, that is just one tactic. What about manouvering trying to get the opponent to tire before you do, or what about trying to make him move the way you want - so that you can take advantage of it?

Example (those who have seen the three musketeers will know what I mean with this example): Character 1 and Character 2 are fencing on the end of a high wall. The wall ends about 10 meters behind character 2, that is closest to the end. Character 1 tries to drive character 2 backwards, so that he can push him down the wall where it ends.

 

[andakitty]

Some time ago Mongoose Matt stated in an interview that fluid combat was one of the things they were specifically trying to model in MRQ.

 

[Archer]

Some time ago Mongoose Matt stated in an interview that fluid combat was one of the things they were specifically trying to model in MRQ.

That makes me happy to hear, but I still will have to see the implementation of it in the rules before I pass judgement on it one way or the other. I am still wary of such things since the introduction of "cinematic play" was promised with Star Wars d20...

 

[Cobra]

There are probably still intentional knockback rules for this scenario.

Cobra