changes to BRP system?

[Enpeze]

Mikko,
thanks for the info. I am playing WFRP2 at the moment too (new Path of the Damned campaign) From time to time I am playing Coc. (2-3 games per year)

I played even D&D (shrug) for several years back in the nineties but the rest I dont know. Over the edge? Dust Devils? Never heard of these games. Well one cannot know everything.

With the dual nature of RQ you are right. This is a contradiction. I solved it through ignoring the Glorantha world setting and playing RQ in other settings. (including contemporary police stories or SF) Was not a bad decision, because so I learned to love the simple geniality of this system. I played other RPs too, but returned always back to RQ.

At the moment I play as stated above WFRP2. Its quite good, but of course not RQ. I has too many rules (many of them unnecessary) too many talents or feats, too many restrictions in a relatively linear career path. Well at least you can roll under % for skills.

 

[atgxtg]

I have Finnish version of the rulebook and it doesn't mention size scale. At least I can't find any reference to what you are writing. It might explain some of my difficulties.

Yeah, if we don't all have the same set of rules differences are bound to pop up. RQ3 wasn't nearly as expensive in the US as in Europe, so I've got muliple copies of a couple different printings, not ot mention an edition or two of most of Chasoium's other BRP based RPGs. I actually figured out the formula behind the SIZ chart for SUPERWORLD before RQ, since it helped in converting comic book characters over based upon thier lifting capacity.

In Europe, I know that the game was so expensive that they eventually came out with other, less exepnsive editions that were missing cvertain things. The SIZ Equivalency charts are the sort of things that would probably be cut.

In the US editions there is a SIZ Equvalencvy Table in the Player's Book, at the end (last page) of the Game System section (right before the Combat section). There is another, longer SIZ equalency table in the GM's book at the end (last page) of the Gameastering section (right before the Civilization section).

If you want to see it I could scan it or type it here. I suspect that MRQ will probably have a new SIZ equalency chart though.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Mikko,
thanks for the info. I am playing WFRP2 at the moment too (new Path of the Damned campaign) From time to time I am playing Coc. (2-3 games per year)

CoC is good for one shots, but too dense campaign can kill the fun. 2-3 times a year sounds like you can still keep the tone close to Lovecraft's vision without feeling too restrictive. WFRP2 is an improvement over the old edition, buth the publishing policy of Black Industries suck big time: books are thin, expensive and ridden with errors. Also some of the earlier expansion books contained information, that should have been included in the core rulebook. Good game though if you can look past the obscure career system and critical hit charts (me not like).

I played even D&D (shrug) for several years back in the nineties but the rest I dont know. Over the edge? Dust Devils? Never heard of these games. Well one cannot know everything.

Over the Edge is incredibly flexile game by Robin D. Laws, who designed Hero Wars with Greg Stafford. Some might find too free as the game gives to to no restrictions what kind of characters players can create. Dust Devils is wild west game, that uses a deck of poker cards and poker chips instead of dice for conflict solving. It also gives players more possibilities over the gamemaster to affect game situations. Again it might not be for everyone.

If you want to see it I could scan it or type it here. I suspect that MRQ will probably have a new SIZ equalency chart though.

Thanks but no need.

 

[RMS]

The dual nature of RQ eventually put me off: the world is very high fantasy with heroes doing earth shattering deeds while the rules depict gritty survival.

A couple of things here:

1. Have you checked out Heroquest? If you liked Glorantha, it might be worthwhile. It scales to heroic levels very well and is the new system tied to the world. It's a very impressive system, but if you like detail (like RQ) it isn't there. (Be careful, there is much hatred for this system around here! )

2. I've heard this complaint before, but I've found that RQ handles high power characters quite elegantly. In Glorantha, magic is so common that RQ characters will be able to perform many amazing feats through magic if they survive for a while. I have a game that's 7+ years old and those characters are literally to the point of wading through standard soldiers, calling earth shattering magics down from the sky, etc. A bit of it is houseruled, but most of that builds directly out of the system as written.

 

[atgxtg]

A couple of things here:

1. Have you checked out Heroquest? If you liked Glorantha, it might be worthwhile. It scales to heroic levels very well and is the new system tied to the world. It's a very impressive system, but if you like detail (like RQ) it isn't there. (Be careful, there is much hatred for this system around here! )

HeroQuest is HeroWars second edition, by the way. Just in case HQ hasn't made it to Finland.

I don't think that there is much hatred for the HW/HQ system here, just that most people here probably prefer RQ to HQ (not surprising consider the forum we are in). Personally, while I have been vocal in my crticism of HW/HQ, I don't hate the game. I just find the game mechanics lacking.

2. I've heard this complaint before, but I've found that RQ handles high power characters quite elegantly. In Glorantha, magic is so common that RQ characters will be able to perform many amazing feats through magic if they survive for a while. I have a game that's 7+ years old and those characters are literally to the point of wading through standard soldiers, calling earth shattering magics down from the sky, etc. A bit of it is houseruled, but most of that builds directly out of the system as written.

I agree with you here. I tried over the years to explain Rune level play to D&Ders as well as to my regular gaming group, whose characters rarely got powerful enough to make it to rune status. My best answer was probably somethingalong the lines of "It's like going from a 10th level fighter to an 11th level Paladin, only better."

Not my best descriptive work. I found that most players, just couldn't get comfortable enough with the magic, particularly the battle magic to survive at seasoned-initiate and Rune Level.

THe players that managed to get past that bumb in the learning curve, discovered that it's a whole new game.

 

[RMS]

HeroQuest is HeroWars second edition, by the way. Just in case HQ hasn't made it to Finland.

I usually skip that part because apparently HW was pretty undeciphorable so put a lot of people off. Also, my understanding is that there are some major differences between the two, though they probably have the same family resemblence as MRQ and RQIII would have. I've never looked at HW and just went straight to HQ myself.

I agree with you here. I tried over the years to explain Rune level play to D&Ders as well as to my regular gaming group, whose characters rarely got powerful enough to make it to rune status. My best answer was probably somethingalong the lines of "It's like going from a 10th level fighter to an 11th level Paladin, only better."

Not my best descriptive work. I found that most players, just couldn't get comfortable enough with the magic, particularly the battle magic to survive at seasoned-initiate and Rune Level.

THe players that managed to get past that bumb in the learning curve, discovered that it's a whole new game.

I've been lucky here. I've only had two RQ groups in the last 15 years. Both were long term campaigns and both ended up with all the characters as Rune level with followers, lots of divine magic and big battle magics. At that point the warriors can pretty much hack through fulling armored, successful parrying, Lunar soldiers at will and take out or even kill one per round. It's a fun thing and especially fun because it's layed over such a gritty system. It emphasizes their powers even more than a more heroic system would.

 

[atgxtg]

Thwere isn't really much difference between HW and HQ. A few changes, but mostly the difference is in describing the game and giving examples as to how things work. I had a freind who owned HW. I bought HQ.

Overall HQ is probably beteer, and comes much close to the claim that all you need is the basic book to play (it still isn't true, but at least HQ comes closer).

One of the changes that I didn't cvare for was the scaling back and elimination of edges from the game. While it made the game much easier to understand, it also made weapons and other equipment much less useful.

**************************************************

Rune Level character in RQ are really something interesting a very different that in other RPGs. In onw way, they are very tough and can do things that can't be done in other systems. On the other hand, they really have to have thier act together or they can get toasted pretty quickly. Generally don't take on more than one opponent, and learn good battle magic tactcs. If you got that down, you should be fine until you either hit some bad luck with the dice, or run into another rune level character.

 

[atgxtg]

I've been looking over preview 4 again and noticed that the "feat-like" abilites have a Hero Point cost. I am wondering if hero points are going to be used for character improvement, sort of like in GURPS, HERO, D6, L5R, ICON and a host of ther RPGs?

 

[Archer]

I've been looking over preview 4 again and noticed that the "feat-like" abilites have a Hero Point cost. I am wondering if hero points are going to be used for character improvement, sort of like in GURPS, HERO, D6, L5R, ICON and a host of ther RPGs?

My guesses would be;
1. Same as XPs in most games. You increase skills etc. with them, buy special abilities etc. with them.
2. They are points you gain for doing heroic deeds, and can be spent on ablities that makes your character even more heroic. This is a system I have seen before in a swedish RPG based on BRP, and modified.

 

[andakitty]

This sounds likely. There may be some mechanic in place to allow faster advancement for certain types of character or aptitudes too. Building on itself as it were. I hope this is the most MRQ has in common with D20 systems.

 

[atgxtg]

I am hoping that it is just the cost to activate an ability. I liked the RQ expericne/check system.

I am wondering-at what point is the new game no longer considered RQ? Sure, Staffford and Mongoose own the rights to the name, so they could write up anything and call it RuneQuest. But with everything being changed, is is really RQ?

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I'm not particularly opposed to the concept of xp myself, so long as it's done correctly. I.e. you don't advance in skills you didn't use to gain the xp, and there are clear and consistent rules for gaining xp from use of all skills.

Hell, I'd even accept Levels on those terms!

IMHO, one pretty major flaw of the old RQ was the "one check only" rule. Someone who only made one attempt at a Fast Talk could end up getting more experience than someone who'd been consistently Fast Talking for a week. The lack of a "learn from your mistakes" mechanic also grated a little, but nowhere near as much.

If Hero Points do equate to xp, if the basic "common sense" terms above are met, and if they somehow resolve that flaw, well, bring them on!

 

[SteveMND]

Someone who only made one attempt at a Fast Talk could end up getting more experience than someone who'd been consistently Fast Talking for a week.

In our campaigns, we always broke it down by day, as opposed to lumping the whole week's worth of activities into one batch. If you used your skill successfully on the 3rd, you'd get a skill roll for it on the 10th. If you then made another successful roll on the 4th, you'd get another skill check on the 11th.

(IIRC, I think we also had a house-rule that if you rolled an 01 on a skill, you forgoed your experience roll for that day, but got 1 percentile added on the spot.)

 

[atgxtg]

I'm not particularly opposed to the concept of xp myself, so long as it's done correctly. I.e. you don't advance in skills you didn't use to gain the xp, and there are clear and consistent rules for gaining xp from use of all skills.

Hell, I'd even accept Levels on those terms!

If Hero Points do equate to xp, if the basic "common sense" terms above are met, and if they somehow resolve that flaw, well, bring them on!

There are serveal RPGs that I like that use a form of XP system. THe CODA system (used for Decipher's LOTR and STAR TREK rpgs) was one of the few games with "levels" that I liked. In that game every 1000XP a character gained an "advancement" that gave the character 5 "picks". Different things cost a different numer of picks. What was nice was that nothing was based upon the number of advancements, so you dfidn't have the "high level always beats low levwel" situation that exists in D&D. Ken Hite was one of the folks who worked on that system, too.

I just really didn't want to see an XP system in RQ. I really liked the check box system and the training rules. THey used to allow for a lot of adventure types that you couldn't run in an XP game. For example, my group once was in chart of a fort that was expecting an attack in the spring. During the winter the PCs trained the garrison and made them more effective. Some PCs even trained the villagers to use missile weapons to provide addtional support. Sort of a Seven Samurai kind of story.

I hope the new rules still allow for training and apply XP to skill used rather than just makeing it a rewards system.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I just really didn't want to see an XP system in RQ. I really liked the check box system and the training rules. THey used to allow for a lot of adventure types that you couldn't run in an XP game. For example, my group once was in chart of a fort that was expecting an attack in the spring. During the winter the PCs trained the garrison and made them more effective. Some PCs even trained the villagers to use missile weapons to provide addtional support. Sort of a Seven Samurai kind of story.

I hope the new rules still allow for training and apply XP to skill used rather than just makeing it a rewards system.

Have you ever played Bushido? That had a combination of classic experience (but with it's own twist), levels, and skill-based training. A 1st level character could - with sufficient training - decimate a 6th (the highest) level character, but of course being 6th level had it's own bonusses also.

 

[Enpeze]

atgxtg - I am wondering-at what point is the new game no longer considered RQ? Sure, Staffford and Mongoose own the rights to the name, so they could write up anything and call it RuneQuest. But with everything being changed, is is really RQ?

This is very interesting question.

What is the heart of RQ? What do you think? What are the core elements of this rule system?

I will name some
-skill checkboxes, no XP
-stats rolled with 3d6 (or 2d6+6) and linear progression.
-every monster has its own set of stats and so it will be similar to player characters
-SIZ stat
-resistance table
-attribute times x roll
-% dice
-no character classes
-small amount of hitpoints
-deadly and fast combat system
-attack & parry
-dodge

Elements which I dont see as "core elements for RQ" (because there are BRP incarnations out there which provide better rules) are
-strike ranks
-character designing in RQ3 (you know pseudo classes like "Barbarian Fisherman" etc.)
-Hit locations
-ENC rules of RQ3
-spirit magic, divine magic and sorcery

Maybe we can discuss a little bit what are the key elements of RQ for those which are interested. If we can define them, we will know if new MRQ is on its track to become a real heir of the original.

 

[SteveMND]

I will name some

Interesting, indeed. Needless to say, we all have our own views, and so there will be differences. Heck, before you even begin that, you really have to define if RQ is just the game mechanics, or is it inextricably tied to the Glorantha setting? People have varying stances on that as well.

Well, personally, I see the game mechanics seperate from the setting, so I'll work off that as a base. Let's see here...

Concepts integral to RQ as a system of game mechanics:

• 
  • Percentile-based (Honestly, to me, you could change everything else and it might still be RQ-ish, but the moment you drop it the percentile system, it ceases to be RQ utterly)
  • Skills-based
  • Base mins and maxes for creature/species stats (for example, a human has a STR range of 3d6, and a minimum and maximum possible score based on that. I always liked that fact that those types of things were not open-ended, and there were limits based on the physical makeup of the creature)
  • STR, CON, DEX, SIZ, POW, INT, APP (I agree the SIZ/mass is important, and could begrudingly go with CHA instead of APP, but I really think the 'personality traits' of a character should be left up to the player)
  • Hit points based on physical makeup, not "class abilities" or experience
  • Not class-based (I don't mind "previous experience" gained by a system similar to RQIII's being similar to a class-based system, but only as a reflection of what you might have come across in the past and not as a means to determine what you are doing now)
  • Not level-based (Your growth should be based on what you use and what you do, not on a subset of pre-defined abilities)
  • A 'fast paced" combat system, as defined by one that incorporates the abilities to attack a foe, dodge an attack, or block/parry an attack as an integral part for all characters
  • Hit locations (Other BRP-esque systems may have eliminated them or found 'another way' to deal with them, but to me, hit locations are critical to being called RQ. it's one of the things that really set the system apart from the others when I discovered the game)
  • A system of determining who hits who first based on abilities/skills and weapon type ("Strike ranks," essentially, although other systems could simulate it; I liked the fact that a guy with a longspear is going to get the first shot off on a guy with only a dagger)
  • An simple method of comparing one quantity to another (I think the resistance table did the job quite well, but other systems could be used)

While not critical, some sort of ENC rules always 'felt' RQ-ish to me. That was one of the things I remember that really stoof out to me as being 'different' with RQ compared to all the other games I was playing back then, and I'm sorry to see it go.

Some things, like spirit and divine magic, I see as integral to Glorantha, but not RQ per se. In that same venue, Magic Points are dependant upon the magic systems used, although I always liked that.

 

[RMS]

Interesting question and I'm not sure I can nail it down completely, but I'll play.

First, it must not have classes or levels. That was what made it unique when I discovered it and it needs to maintain that.

I agree about everyone having the same stats (unless they're an incomplete creature of course). I've done so much BRP that I had forgotten that many systems don't do this.

The SIZ stat is fine and is one that is unique with BRP games, but I don't know if it'd make or break anything for me.

Skills need to go up through useage, whether it's the current system or something else, but they need to be tied to their use and not just arbitrarily assigned XP.

I agree about the deadly combat system that consists of active attack and active defense rolls that allow parrys and dodges of otherwise successful strikes. Also, it needs to be relatively deadly.

Elements which I dont see as "core elements for RQ" (because there are BRP incarnations out there which provide better rules) are
-strike ranks
-character designing in RQ3 (you know pseudo classes like "Barbarian Fisherman" etc.)
-Hit locations
-ENC rules of RQ3
-spirit magic, divine magic and sorcery

I'm going to disagree here. Strike ranks and hit locations are part of RQ and should be. Other BRP games don't use them, but they aren't RQ. The character design in RQ3 isn't part of RQ. Same with the ENC rules, and definitely the fatigue rules...especially since nobody uses them anyway!

I'll disagree on spirit/battle magic and divine magic. Part of RQ uniqueness is that everyone has magic and that the magic is tied directly to the character's god. These systems are as much of what RQ is as any of the above IMO.

 

[atgxtg]

I'm pretty much in agreement with SteveMND here,

hile there are some things that aren't in some of the other BRP deritives (like Strike Ranks, Previous Experience and Hit Locations) those deriatieves aren't considered RuneQuest, either. Dodge can't be considered an RQ core ability, since it didn't exist prior to RQ3. RQ2 had a Defense ability that reduced your chance of being hit. Probably the only RQ/BRP spinoff that was RuneQuest underneath waould have been ElfQuest. With the execption of the setting and very high starting skill pecentages, the system was RQIII.


I also think that it is possible to change some things and have the game still be RQ. In fact, you can probably change any ONE thing without being a different game. For example, I could see a RQ2 type game but using a D20 in place of the 5% increments-with adjusted critical and impale chances to fit.

It is just how many such changes before the game becomes a differenet game. Let's see what seems to be differenet in MRQ:

No skill checks
No resistance table
Stat rolls?
Attack & Parry combined into single skill (from Elric)



SOme other things are differenet (like HP) but we don't just how they are differenet yet.

 

[RMS]

From reading this, I'm guessing you're familiar with RQIII and not RQII, so I'll comment as such. Sorry if that's incorrect.

• 
  • Percentile-based (Honestly, to me, you could change everything else and it might still be RQ-ish, but the moment you drop it the percentile system, it ceases to be RQ utterly)
  • STR, CON, DEX, SIZ, POW, INT, APP (I agree the SIZ/mass is important, and could begrudingly go with CHA instead of APP, but I really think the 'personality traits' of a character should be left up to the player)

I don't have strong ties to the percentile system. This probably explains why I don't understand people who just love it above all else, and equally why I never understand people who refuse to play a system strictly because of percentiles. I mentioned elsewhere that you could drop the d20 resolution mechanic straight in and everything else would still work like RQ. All IMO of course.

APP vs. CHA: In RQII, CHA was a great stat that had lots of in game purpose. It determined how much credit you could receive in pregame for things like training. (In RQII, the default creation method is that you start as a raw kid off the streets/farm, so you have your rolled stats and default skill levels. Then you take loans to train some skills to get you started.) Also, CHA determined functions of followers, magic crystals/spirits tied to the character, etc. It also went up and down with successful or failed ventures. It was very well done and as important as the other stats. APP is pretty much worthless IMO. All I've ever seen it do is determine which of the NPCs of the opposite sex the PCs will attempt to get in the sack with!

While not critical, some sort of ENC rules always 'felt' RQ-ish to me. That was one of the things I remember that really stoof out to me as being 'different' with RQ compared to all the other games I was playing back then, and I'm sorry to see it go.

ENC is good in a gritty game. I'll say again that RQII had this nailed down very well. It was simple and to the point, and still conveyed everything that the RQIII system does, but with less accounting. (Ironic that I've never understood the fuss about calculating 1/20, 1/5, etc. of your skills during play, but find accounting of ENC in RQ or accounting of character points in GURPS to be a real irritation.)

Some things, like spirit and divine magic, I see as integral to Glorantha, but not RQ per se. In that same venue, Magic Points are dependant upon the magic systems used, although I always liked that.

I can actually see this argument, and I have used RQ with different magic systems in other worlds, but at the same time it wouldn't be RQ to me without spirit and divine magic, or Rune Lords and Rune Priests and cults, etc.