Change to TAS Conditions - Use of AI

It's not 1977, though. People accepted a lot back then: we're not so keen on unjustified right text, pictures that look like they were drawn by the writers' children (AD&D 1e PHB I'm looking at you), female characters with stats penalties, 100% honky male illustrations surreptitiously traced from comic books and more.
It doesn't change things though. Pay for a human creative to sell under the TAS license, or use no art. What people do for free or on their own is their business, but Mongoose has chosen to stand with the creatives. Does that impact people that can't afford to pay for art? It does, just as it has since time immemorial. No free lunch.
 
As I have pointed out numerous times, one of the guys who makes lists and uses AI "art" does not include that art in previews... Meaning that no one is making a decision to purchase his stuff based on that "art."
Paint Shop Pro is capable of using Photoshop brushes. Plenty of free ones out there. Not much skill needed with those to make top and bottom page borders.
 
someone said in the forum and if recall well, this post, that he had some free art for tas traveller to use.
so if you want to create some tas things and have no much money, use it.
and for what im reading from people that complains about the no ai rule, is purely economic. most dont want to pay a person to do a thing.
for me and with all respect is a bit greedy.
 
someone said in the forum and if recall well, this post, that he had some free art for tas traveller to use.
so if you want to create some tas things and have no much money, use it.
and for what im reading from people that complains about the no ai rule, is purely economic. most dont want to pay a person to do a thing.
for me and with all respect is a bit greedy.
You’re calling us greedy? Do you realize how many freelance illustrators survive off their drawing income?

It’s got the lowest upfront cost of almost any freelance job and it’s not dependent on passive royalties the way writing or music is, so it’s frequently the only option for people who can’t get a traditional job like many neurodiverse people.

So we’ll talk again after UBI and fusion power and for now shut your greedy ableist mouth.
 
You’re calling us greedy? Do you realize how many freelance illustrators survive off their drawing income?

It’s got the lowest upfront cost of almost any freelance job and it’s not dependent on passive royalties the way writing or music is, so it’s frequently the only option for people who can’t get a traditional job like many neurodiverse people.

So we’ll talk again after UBI and fusion power and for now shut your greedy ableist mouth.
I believe he was referring to the people that don't want to pay creatives, not the creatives.
 
You’re calling us greedy? Do you realize how many freelance illustrators survive off their drawing income?

It’s got the lowest upfront cost of almost any freelance job and it’s not dependent on passive royalties the way writing or music is, so it’s frequently the only option for people who can’t get a traditional job like many neurodiverse people.

So we’ll talk again after UBI and fusion power and for now shut your greedy ableist mouth.
Sir,

sorry if i havent explained well, english is not my first language.
i am referring to the people that does not want to pay artist, as well said Terry.

some of my friends are artists and are very pissed off by Ai theme and not being able to find proper jobs because of it.

and please, let us have a peacefull chat about it :)
no need to write that last phrase ;)
 
Sir,

sorry if i havent explained well, english is not my first language.
i am referring to the people that does not want to pay artist, as well said Terry.

some of my friends are artists and are very pissed off by Ai theme and not being able to find proper jobs because of it.

and please, let us have a peacefull chat about it :)
no need to write that last phrase ;)
Sorry, I got you mixed up with one of the LLM-advocates on this thread.

You and Endie have the same initial.
 
Well, as a CGI illustrator who enjoys creating with it, and hopes to eventuay supplement retirement income with publishing for game companies; being able to create an entire product myself and who - like Mongoose - prefers to make custom images that bring visual impact to the work vs stock art - am being blocked from supporting my favorite artist (me, sorry for the bias) even when the tools I want to use that leverage AI have clear ethical originality. For example look what DAZ is doing that is training their AI solely on their base of artists who give permission, and who in turn get a share of the revenue. A LOT more artists benefit from this arrangement, and anyone trying to hold onto the idea that AI is stealing is just putting their head in the sand.

 
There is value to AI tools, absolutely, and that is not the point we are arguing. I'll give an example...

When we commission an art piece, the artist will provide several sketches to demonstrate composition - basically, where everything is going to go in the picture. While these are just rough sketches, they obviously take time to do.

So, some of our artists have started using AI to very rapidly (near instantly!) create composition mock-ups. They fire them back to us, and we say 'yes, that one right there, that is what we are looking for.'

Here is the important bit though. Once the composition has been selected, the generated piece is put to one side and the actual final piece is created from scratch.

We are all for AI making lives easier and more fulfilling. What we are against is the removal of the artist from the artistic process. And the reason for that is because what the effect of the removal of art from society will have.

We cannot stop this, obviously. But we can create a little Traveller-shaped island.

Matt, thanks for laying this out. I waited a beat to respond because I also wanted to be able to suggest things that may prove helpful in preserving that Traveller-shaped island.

Ironically, your example is the best argument against a blanket ban, you are acknowledging real value from AI in the workflow: your artists use it to explore compositions faster, then produce a human-crafted final. That proves the principle that Mongoose is living by isn’t “no AI,” it’s human authorship, accountability, and rights while leveraging AI as a tool in the workflow.

A blanket ban contradicts that principle and hurts the very people who follow it. You’ve accepted AI use at the beginning of your process, just not at the end. The line between “composition mock-up” and “final” is a production choice, not an ethical one; otherwise, you would not be using AI even there. Plenty of pros finish with paint-overs, 3D kitbash, photobash, stock, or AI-assisted refinement. The ethical bar should be: Is there a responsible human author? Are the rights clean? Is the quality high? Not “which button did you push & when.”

Bans reward deception and punish honesty. People who disclose AI get blocked without any nuance to how AI is used. People who don’t disclose slip through because detection is unreliable. That’s exactly what we see across marketplaces: unenforceable rules create perverse incentives and selective enforcement and do nothing to try and solve the problems you hope to avoid.

I know what I want to create and how to put it together; I don't need to pay someone to create for me because I can't afford an artist. When I need 3D models, I pay the artist who creates them, but I don't need them to render them for me. If I want my scene to get a final look, I don't want to not use photoshop or actions or plug-ins just because they use AI in some form.

Just because a vocal segment of the art community equates “AI” with theft. I don't believe that just because a poll here showed just 4 people tipped the percentage in favor of those who say “no” to AI use vs those who say Yes speaks to what the broader market feels is right. Even here, there is 9% undecided. I'm betting if the poll were seen by a larger segment of your market base, and was more nuanced, i.e. No AI, AI-Assisted, AI Originated; use of quality guidelines, rights assurance Vs the broader Yes or No, that you will see a majority response that agrees to a need for a policy that is more nuanced. I guarantee you that there are also people across the different social media platforms who are reluctant to be supportive of that nuanced use of AI because of the toxic backlash from those who hate it.

I believe the majority of customers buy based on clarity, usefulness, style cohesion, resolution, and play value—not on whether a sketch layer came from pencil, Blender, or a model. Govern outcomes and rights, not the tool. A “Traveller-shaped island” reads more like self-imposed scarcity, and scarcity cedes market share.

I'm really hoping the leadership of Mongoose, Roll20, DriveThru, Chaosium, and others will see the need to educate, provide guidance, and create policies that help, and to please stop using gatekeeping as a PR safety net disguised as virtue.

One policy framework that I think would be easy to support and would scale well:

1. Disclosure, not disqualification, as simple as: Say “Hand-Crafted” or “AI Assisted” or “ AI Originated” labels, visible to buyers.

2. Rights assurance is needed now, and will keep the “Flood” you were concerned about under control because it could no longer be a free-for-all. creators attest they own/hold rights to all elements. Infringement = takedown and loss of the privilege to participate.

3. Set the quality bar, with guidelines on resolution, readability, and style consistency, and apply equally to all submissions. no fake signatures or false “hand-painted” claims or other deceptions.

4. Here is an important part, and one that should involve less work for existing staff: Evidence-based disputes, such as time-boxed reviews with neutral precedent. (Not saying you need to add staff; just standardize reviews. Creators provide the provenance, you apply a 20-minute checklist, and only credible, evidence-backed reports enter the queue. I can provide you detail on what this would look like and why it would not drown your people in work).

You said, “We are against the removal of the artist from the process.” I agree! So codify human authorship and rights, not a tool ban.

You see the endless debate that this conversation spirals into and in particular in this thread very long postings about, in essence that “History” is clear: new tools (camera, Photoshop, 3D) didn’t remove art from society they expanded who could participate or enable faster workflows just as you indicated some of your artists do - when they use the AI out of sight to make it clear what they need to then imitate with their untainted workflow.

Some artists who are faced with competing against AI have begun working with it to stay competitive and are still involved in “human authorship”. A vast majority of artists in this industry have never gotten a good income, even before AI, and now are badly needing to find a way to adapt to this new technology to stay competitive, preserve their livelihood, and navigate new ways to make a living as an artist, because there is not going to be a path where AI gets put back in the bottle. Blanket banning does nothing to help those artists materially. Just focus on clean rights, and visible disclosure and let customers decide on merit.

Sincerely,

Joel
 
Matt, thanks for laying this out. I waited a beat to respond because I also wanted to be able to suggest things that may prove helpful in preserving that Traveller-shaped island.

Ironically, your example is the best argument against a blanket ban, you are acknowledging real value from AI in the workflow: your artists use it to explore compositions faster, then produce a human-crafted final. That proves the principle that Mongoose is living by isn’t “no AI,” it’s human authorship, accountability, and rights while leveraging AI as a tool in the workflow.

A blanket ban contradicts that principle and hurts the very people who follow it. You’ve accepted AI use at the beginning of your process, just not at the end. The line between “composition mock-up” and “final” is a production choice, not an ethical one; otherwise, you would not be using AI even there. Plenty of pros finish with paint-overs, 3D kitbash, photobash, stock, or AI-assisted refinement. The ethical bar should be: Is there a responsible human author? Are the rights clean? Is the quality high? Not “which button did you push & when.”

Bans reward deception and punish honesty. People who disclose AI get blocked without any nuance to how AI is used. People who don’t disclose slip through because detection is unreliable. That’s exactly what we see across marketplaces: unenforceable rules create perverse incentives and selective enforcement and do nothing to try and solve the problems you hope to avoid.

I know what I want to create and how to put it together; I don't need to pay someone to create for me because I can't afford an artist. When I need 3D models, I pay the artist who creates them, but I don't need them to render them for me. If I want my scene to get a final look, I don't want to not use photoshop or actions or plug-ins just because they use AI in some form.

Just because a vocal segment of the art community equates “AI” with theft. I don't believe that just because a poll here showed just 4 people tipped the percentage in favor of those who say “no” to AI use vs those who say Yes speaks to what the broader market feels is right. Even here, there is 9% undecided. I'm betting if the poll were seen by a larger segment of your market base, and was more nuanced, i.e. No AI, AI-Assisted, AI Originated; use of quality guidelines, rights assurance Vs the broader Yes or No, that you will see a majority response that agrees to a need for a policy that is more nuanced. I guarantee you that there are also people across the different social media platforms who are reluctant to be supportive of that nuanced use of AI because of the toxic backlash from those who hate it.

I believe the majority of customers buy based on clarity, usefulness, style cohesion, resolution, and play value—not on whether a sketch layer came from pencil, Blender, or a model. Govern outcomes and rights, not the tool. A “Traveller-shaped island” reads more like self-imposed scarcity, and scarcity cedes market share.

I'm really hoping the leadership of Mongoose, Roll20, DriveThru, Chaosium, and others will see the need to educate, provide guidance, and create policies that help, and to please stop using gatekeeping as a PR safety net disguised as virtue.

One policy framework that I think would be easy to support and would scale well:

1. Disclosure, not disqualification, as simple as: Say “Hand-Crafted” or “AI Assisted” or “ AI Originated” labels, visible to buyers.

2. Rights assurance is needed now, and will keep the “Flood” you were concerned about under control because it could no longer be a free-for-all. creators attest they own/hold rights to all elements. Infringement = takedown and loss of the privilege to participate.

3. Set the quality bar, with guidelines on resolution, readability, and style consistency, and apply equally to all submissions. no fake signatures or false “hand-painted” claims or other deceptions.

4. Here is an important part, and one that should involve less work for existing staff: Evidence-based disputes, such as time-boxed reviews with neutral precedent. (Not saying you need to add staff; just standardize reviews. Creators provide the provenance, you apply a 20-minute checklist, and only credible, evidence-backed reports enter the queue. I can provide you detail on what this would look like and why it would not drown your people in work).

You said, “We are against the removal of the artist from the process.” I agree! So codify human authorship and rights, not a tool ban.

You see the endless debate that this conversation spirals into and in particular in this thread very long postings about, in essence that “History” is clear: new tools (camera, Photoshop, 3D) didn’t remove art from society they expanded who could participate or enable faster workflows just as you indicated some of your artists do - when they use the AI out of sight to make it clear what they need to then imitate with their untainted workflow.

Some artists who are faced with competing against AI have begun working with it to stay competitive and are still involved in “human authorship”. A vast majority of artists in this industry have never gotten a good income, even before AI, and now are badly needing to find a way to adapt to this new technology to stay competitive, preserve their livelihood, and navigate new ways to make a living as an artist, because there is not going to be a path where AI gets put back in the bottle. Blanket banning does nothing to help those artists materially. Just focus on clean rights, and visible disclosure and let customers decide on merit.

Sincerely,

Joel
The problem with the numbers in the poll is that one person disingenuously recruited people to come into the forums and vote for AI to tilt the results to what they preferred. Before then, it had been about 2/3 against and 1/3 for.
 
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The problem with the numbers in the poll is that one person disingenuously recruited people to come into the forums and vote for AI to tilt the results to what they preferred. Before then, it had been about 2/3 against and 1/3 for.
Come on Terry, 70 people participated in that poll.
 
The problem with the numbers in the poll is that one person disingenuously recruited people to come into the forums and vote for AI to tilt the results to what they preferred. Before then, it had been about 2/3 against and 1/3 for.
So someone posted about it elsewhere to get a wider sampling of users who might be interested in the topic. Nothing says it couldn't attract those who agree with an AI ban just as easily as those who don't.
 
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So someone posted about it elsewhere to get a wider sampling of users who might be interested in the topic. Nothing says it couldn't attract those who agree with an AI ban just as easily as those who don't.
Exactly. I know I tried to post it in one group that has a lot of Traveller members, but I think since the post was about AI it was blocked.
 
So someone posted about it elsewhere to get a wider sampling of users who might be interested in the topic. Nothing says it couldn't attract those who agree with an AI ban just as easily as those who don't.
On a poll that is strictly to take the temperature on this forum, recruiting from outside the forum is disingenuous and done to intentionally skew the results. It’s the act of someone desperate to gin up legitimacy for their point of view. If they wanted to test the waters on another platform, they could as easily make a poll there. This one was clearly marked as sampling the members here.
 
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I

Exactly. I know I tried to post it in one group that has a lot of Traveller members, but I think since the post was about AI it was blocked.
The person has their own Facebook group. Perhaps he should have polled them rather than ruining the poll here by putting a thumb on the scale.

In any case, using the closeness of the poll here as a talking point isn’t a valid since it was manipulated.

I felt obligated to not let that go without clarifying how someone intentionally skewed the poll results. Now you know that it isn’t a valid result of people here so continue your discussion. I’m not going to get drawn back into it. Mongoose made their call, which I agree with, and that’s good enough for me.
 
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Well, as a CGI illustrator who enjoys creating with it, and hopes to eventuay supplement retirement income with publishing for game companies; being able to create an entire product myself and who - like Mongoose - prefers to make custom images that bring visual impact to the work vs stock art - am being blocked from supporting my favorite artist (me, sorry for the bias) even when the tools I want to use that leverage AI have clear ethical originality. For example look what DAZ is doing that is training their AI solely on their base of artists who give permission, and who in turn get a share of the revenue. A LOT more artists benefit from this arrangement, and anyone trying to hold onto the idea that AI is stealing is just putting their head in the sand.


Unless you plan to retire inthe next few months you will be fine. In a couple of years the controversy over the subject will be gone, and adoption will be widespread. Even Mongoose, as you point out, are (sensibly) already using AI in their art production.
 
Unless you plan to retire inthe next few months you will be fine. In a couple of years the controversy over the subject will be gone, and adoption will be widespread. Even Mongoose, as you point out, are (sensibly) already using AI in their art production.
i think they have said that they will never use ai in art production.
please, if you claim this, make proof of it where they have said that.

and btw i will never buy something that has ai art or writing. So do think a lot of people.
Ai thing=no money from me, that is my power as consumer.
 
i think they have said that they will never use ai in art production.
please, if you claim this, make proof of it where they have said that.

and btw i will never buy something that has ai art or writing. So do think a lot of people.
Ai thing=no money from me, that is my power as consumer.
Read this page: it is quoted here.
 
Read this page: it is quoted here.
i found it. you are right.

some of the artirsts they pay, use ai to create first impression mock-ups. Then they choose one and the artist create one starting from 0.
Also:
"
Here is the important bit though. Once the composition has been selected, the generated piece is put to one side and the actual final piece is created from scratch.
"
But the art is done by the artist not the ai.

so for me no ai art or wrtting is used.

and regarding the adoption will be widespread, maybe. but maybe is a passing trend as a lot of things i have seen during my life, saying they would be the wonka fabulous ultimate thing and two years later are deep forgotten.

Only time will see
 
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