CENTAURI HUNTING PACK: BROKEN?!

[Da Boss]

The In sink argument is not quite as clear - first turn all ships fire at 30" - 2nd turn squadron breaks up into a smaller sqaudron and single ships. It gives a substantial new alpha strike option for the Centauri.

Its also worth noting that you can fire at a sqaudron - now this is where it gets really nasty for Dilgar players.

Also it makes big ships even less viable as a war level ship is going to get the full brunt of say 5 Demos and 1 Elutarian at 30" range

so thats 6 SAP Precise DD missiles followed by 30 SAP Precise missiles.
probably at least some with be concentrated as well? and all at range 30"

look forward to using this against the Vorlons, Narn, Dilgar and ISA. Fairly sure even Gaim and EA interceptors won't cope with firepower of that magnitude.

It also helps against Vree fleets - as you can increase range if you go in two ship squadrons and have your TL DD Ion cannons woriking at 18"

Good things:
1) er well I am Centauri so it great for us

Bad things

The Demos is too good, so lets reduce its power but then give it new options - just a bit wierd
Playtesting - apparently none by official playtesters or even opinions sought - bit odd
New options for the Centauri as above - (that we don't need)
bad wording - being in range is not the same as attacking a ship - it should the latter else it works whilst you are reloading? Bad thing
Number of ships is not restricted - so you can have packs of 2,3 whatever

Compared to other fleets this is a big boost - does everyone get something equally valauble and / or flexible?

 

[MongooseMatt]

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

Thank you, yes, you have nailed one of the main drawbacks of this rule. It is _not_ particularly efficient.

The other, of course, is that if you are hanging one ship forward while chaining the rest of the pack backwards, there is every chance the forward ship will get nailed, leaving the rest out of range. Sure, you can opt to fire the pack first in your turn but you will a) not always have the initiative and b) you will now be basing the tactics of your whole fleet around the pack - and there are players about that will just love you to do that.

Believe me, this rule is not what many of you seem to think it is - I suggest you _try_ it, as we have, before you get too excited.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I am also completely dismayed that Mongoose and Matt obviously knew that players would not like this rule and for this reason just didn't bother to present it for playtesting.

Now, this presents an interesting image. Do people _really_ think I sit at Mongoose HQ, cackling away as I devise new ways to terrorise players?

We had three levels of playtesting for P&P - the FiveGoodMen, these forums, and the work we do ourselves at Mongoose. We tried several different systems for Hunting Packs, and these were all, in one way or another, filtered out.

We considered taking out Hunting Packs altogether, but another idea was suggested in the office, we tried it out - and it worked.

Personally I would like Matt to respond to why this rule was implimented

Becuase it is fun and a cool thing to do. . .

Like I said before, _try_ the Hunting Packs out. They have their uses, but they are not what you think they are.

 

[Da Boss]

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

Thank you, yes, you have nailed one of the main drawbacks of this rule. It is _not_ particularly efficient.

The other, of course, is that if you are hanging one ship forward while chaining the rest of the pack backwards, there is every chance the forward ship will get nailed, leaving the rest out of range. Sure, you can opt to fire the pack first in your turn but you will a) not always have the initiative and b) you will now be basing the tactics of your whole fleet around the pack - and there are players about that will just love you to do that.

Believe me, this rule is not what many of you seem to think it is - I suggest you _try_ it, as we have, before you get too excited.

Interesting - how did your tests go and what ships did they use - the Elutarian, 5 Demos seems a no brainer in first turn and then shift to a smaller squadron 2nd turn.

The In sink argument is not quite as clear - first turn all ships fire at 30" - 2nd turn squadron breaks up into a smaller sqaudron and single ships. It gives a substantial new alpha strike option for the Centauri. Its also worth noting that you can fire at a sqaudron - now this is where it gets really nasty for Dilgar players. The much vaunted pentacon becomes a disadvantage.

also its not always going to be 6 ships of our fleet - but it does always increase the range and power of our guns....event 2 ship squadrons can use this rule

 

[Burger]

Matt,
I do not believe that you deliberately try to put in broken rules. I do believe that you test things, play with them until they work, and put in "cool" stuff. But I think it is quite worrying that 2 of the 3 playetest groups you mention were not consulted at all on this rule!

The thing I don't think you do particularly well, is try to BREAK or ABUSE your new rules. It seems that you playtest with them "as intended" rather than trying to do outlandish things with them. That is the point of playtesters, and it is what some of us on the forums are very good at! I have no doubts that some people will be able to build fleets using this rule that are extremely broken. As has been pointed out already, you can have a hunting pack of 2 or 3 ships which gets around the concentrated fire drawback. You can include a long range ship such as an Elutarian which negates the drawback of having to have one pack member "up close" in danger. Da Boss's alpha strike is very nasty. It remains to be seen what the more sneaky players will come up with, but I don't think it will be pretty!!

 

[Da Boss]

Amusingly its worth noting that now that Havens have to be in squadrons in larger games - I imagine each group of two will be their own little "hunting pack" - cos why not !

 

[MongooseMatt]

Interesting - how did your tests go and what ships did they use - the Elutarian, 5 Demos seems a no brainer in first turn and then shift to a smaller squadron 2nd turn.

Yes, and there are other combinations that are worth a look at too (Darkners are pretty cool, and Packs suit their designated role very well). They would be no brainers, _if_ other fleets were unable to respond (repel firepower of that magnitude. . .) and _if_ there was not a certain level of inefficiency built in to the squadron rule itself.

There are times when squadrons (and Hunting Packs) are worth using - and there are times (more of them) when you are generally better off using ships individually.

 

[Burger]

They would be no brainers, _if_ other fleets were unable to respond (repel firepower of that magnitude. . .)

Sorry, don't understand this. How can you respond to your biggest ship being blown to pieces by an Elutarian and 5 Demos/Darkner in the first turn without having a chance to return fire? (Centauri win initiative very often with +3 bonus and a Raid level Command carrier)

Yes your other ships can fire back but by then it's too little, too late.

 

[MongooseMatt]

You can include a long range ship such as an Elutarian which negates the drawback of having to have one pack member "up close" in danger.

And which ship is the enemy fleet going to be targeting? If the Elutarian was a tank, this would be a definite issue. As it stands, it only really has Hull 6 in its favour (and think about what longer ranged weapons tend to do against Hull 6). Its Damage is fairly average for Raid level, and there are no active defences beyond Anti-Fighter, which is a non-starter in this part of the game anyway. Remember, as well, that destruction is not necessarily required, as a range of criticals will put paid to the Pack's alpha strike, and a well placed Scout may cause the Elutarian pain (in more ways than one. . .).

Seriously, guys, _try_ it. If you get clobbered by a Pack in your first game (and you probably will, new rules have a habit of doing that), go back to your fleet list and turn the odds back into your favour.

 

[Da Boss]

I see that but given that a "Hunting Pack" is basically a "better" squadron than anyone has access to, I am just interested in why you think the Glorious Republic needed it.

( note I can easily empathise with the rule of cool - use it way too much myself in my own creations )

I have seen large ships facing similar levels of firepower from the Dilgar at shorted range and being vapourised even with Adaptive Armour.

Ok we need to test it I see that - but I fancy there will be some very ugly games...................

 

[MongooseMatt]

I see that but given that a "Hunting Pack" is basically a "better" squadron than anyone has access to, I am just interested in why you think the Glorious Republic needed it.

Well, the first question would be, why not? Just about every fleet gets _something_ cool and extra in P&P, so why not the Centauri? Unless, of course, you think the Centauri somehow don't deserve it (which I would not agree with).

 

[Alexb83]

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target (regardless of whether they are using the 50% range). That's six ships all firing at one. Chances are the target ship will be destroyed but how many shots will be wasted?

Thank you, yes, you have nailed one of the main drawbacks of this rule. It is _not_ particularly efficient.

The other, of course, is that if you are hanging one ship forward while chaining the rest of the pack backwards, there is every chance the forward ship will get nailed, leaving the rest out of range. Sure, you can opt to fire the pack first in your turn but you will a) not always have the initiative and b) you will now be basing the tactics of your whole fleet around the pack - and there are players about that will just love you to do that.

Believe me, this rule is not what many of you seem to think it is - I suggest you _try_ it, as we have, before you get too excited.

It's no massive disadvantage to a high no. of ship, low PL fleet, especially where they're playing against a small no. of ships (comparatively) high PL fleet. Add the fact that Centauri will generally win initiative and so get to fire first, and will be in position to capitalise on this rule.

You've just massively skewed in favour of the small-ship fleets, moreso than was already the case.

 

[Burger]

Well, the first question would be, why not? Just about every fleet gets _something_ cool and extra in P&P, so why not the Centauri? Unless, of course, you think the Centauri somehow don't deserve it (which I would not agree with).

Haven't got my book yet, but lets go on the playtest version that was put on the forum, assuming nothing else major has changed!

Brakiri get gravitic shifter criticals.
Drakh get critical systems defence, yes good but they lose the standard GEG to get it.
Minbari get web of death. Thanks most of our ships already have high AAF anyway...
ISA get high power turns.
Psi Corps get psychic interrogation.
Shadows get mind scream, only useful against Psi Corps.

In short, you are right, all races get something cool! But these cool things don't really add much power to the fleet at all. They are all basically funky little things you can do every now and then to add a bit of flavour, and give you a minor boost. They don't really make your fleet any more powerful.

Hunting packs, DOES add power, there can be no doubt of that. It might not be as much as we are making it out to be (yes I agree we need to try it to see), but you can't argue that it does make the Centauri fleet more powerful, and it does add more power than any of the other race's "fleet command" rules. It is certainly much more open to abuse, as we've alreayd posted about on this thread. Even if it's not the "I win" button in all situations, it can certainly be in some.

 

[Alexb83]

There is one downside that no one seems to be paying attention to. The fact that they all HAVE to fire at the same target

That is true. It is a quite a significant limitation. Less so for Vorchan/Demos packs, but it is one none the less.

This rule does away with all most of the inherent problems of the previous rule, which is good. It is certainly a very powerful tool for Centauri players and I would like to have seen it playtested before its inclusion in the book.

Was it neccesary for the strength of the Centauri fleet? No.
Is it interesting? Yes.
Is it broken? Will have to wait and see.

As per the wording of that rule, the 'target' is not necessarily an individual ship, it can be any number of ships in an enemy squadron (presumably so long as they all split their dice the same way).

 

[Da Boss]

You can include a long range ship such as an Elutarian which negates the drawback of having to have one pack member "up close" in danger.

And which ship is the enemy fleet going to be targeting?

If they can reach - which is by no means certain, 30" is not a small range

Remember, as well, that destruction is not necessarily required, as a range of criticals will put paid to the Pack's alpha strike, and a well placed Scout may cause the Elutarian pain (in more ways than one. . .).

not sure I understand this - Centauri wil often go first and if so the return fire / crits are meaningless. Scout - little effect lock on is the only thing and most missile fire has most problems against hull 6 - even without a nearby Maximus.

Seriously, guys, _try_ it. If you get clobbered by a Pack in your first game (and you probably will, new rules have a habit of doing that), go back to your fleet list and turn the odds back into your favour.

Agreed it needs trying but I cant see how some fleets can avoid / cope with the alpha strike - Narn?

 

[Digger]

Well as a regular Narn player and after reading the above, my conclusion is that I am screwed - but not in a nice way! :evil:

There will, I am sure, be a tactic to overcome it, I just can't think of it at the moment.

Should make the tourney in May very interesting as I believe the P&P rules will be in use? :?:

 

[H]

mm, so then

is the new tactic as balanced as say previous versions of the sagi? or the Whitestar?

sorry, I agree with Burger, most of the new fleet rules are lightly used at best, this one will be used a heck of a lot (oh i think the abbai one will be used too, if as playtest)
I kept one fleet... I may flog it, small Crusade EA fleetfor sale anyone :wink:

 

[Da Boss]

Well as a regular Narn player and after reading the above, my conclusion is that I am screwed - but not in a nice way! :evil:

There will, I am sure, be a tactic to overcome it, I just can't think of it at the moment.

Should make the tourney in May very interesting as I believe the P&P rules will be in use? :?:

yes but the artifical 8 ship limit should help in this case - otherwise Glory Days.

If anything can help the Narn beyond the repeated application of the whip

 

[Da Boss]

I see that but given that a "Hunting Pack" is basically a "better" squadron than anyone has access to, I am just interested in why you think the Glorious Republic needed it.

Well, the first question would be, why not? Just about every fleet gets _something_ cool and extra in P&P, so why not the Centauri? Unless, of course, you think the Centauri somehow don't deserve it (which I would not agree with).

Cool is good - but I think this is a little too good..............ah well its done now - have to see what happens.

I would however be interersted in your counter tactics to the Alpha Strike Squadron for say Narn players

 

[katadder]

not that saying the hunting pack is good but a counter from the narn would be e-mines as squadrons really are not good facing narn.