Carrier trait

[Sulfurdown]

In 2E does the Carrier trait still replenish two flights or was that an Armageddon only thing? I'm asking because to my mind the Shadow Fighters would be almost balanced if their shield worked against anti-fighter weapons and Shadow Ships (young/ancient) had the Carrier 1 trait. At least then the Shadow fighters wouldn't cost anymore then the other fighters in the game and it fits with the idea that the Fighters are pieces broken off from the main ships.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Shadow fighters are expendable crap. They died in wholesale lots in the episodes so there is no need to expect more of them here. Being slower is not a big issue since they can be shot out of the Shadow Ship launch tube anyway. Being an ancient race doesn't guarentee that you do everything better
Regards,

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Isn't that the whole problem at the moment though? Ruleswise they're not expendable crap - they're highly expensive crap. I don't think most people have much of a problem with the idea that the shadows have crap fighters, just that they have crap fighters and that the players are expected to pay an arm and a leg for them...

 

[David Anla Shok']

Isn't that the whole problem at the moment though? Ruleswise they're not expendable crap - they're highly expensive crap. I don't think most people have much of a problem with the idea that the shadows have crap fighters, just that they have crap fighters and that the players are expected to pay an arm and a leg for them...

Screw em, they're Shadows

 

[DrSeltsam]

Shadow fighters are expendable crap. They died in wholesale lots in the episodes so there is no need to expect more of them here. Being slower is not a big issue since they can be shot out of the Shadow Ship launch tube anyway. Being an ancient race doesn't guarentee that you do everything better
Regards,

We may have a different definition what "expendable crap" is :wink:
Paying the campaign points for a Skirmish ship to get 2 fighter bases that are not really worth buying at all can be defined in many ways but in no way "expandable".

To get for 1 Patrol point:
8 Kotha,
6 Falkosi,
6 StarSnakes,
6 Klikkitak or
8 Delta-V ... that's what i would call "expenable".
And in the case of a campaign you would even get double the numbers above for 2 Shadow fighters ... who will do a swarm now ?

Launching the fighters with the tube is a no-go. No weapon fire to launch my "mighty" fighters ? ... i don't think so :roll:

Like someone else explained better than i could and also agreeing with the fluff is that the Shadows evolve through conflict. To ignore a complete aspect of conflict does not suit this very well.
Regarding your argumentation: the Ancients should not be able to do anything better - just be competitive and in context with the background.

If they are expendable = get more fighter bases for a point
If they are better = make the stats better to match the fluff
IMHO it is currently a mix of both :roll:

 

[Da Boss]

Couldn't agree more

its a balance issue / playability issue...............

 

[Green_Knight]

from my point of view i would make the shield work against AF fire.

I would remove the double cost for fighters in campaign games
for them.

So they would be partly fixed.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Given that you won't be paying RRs to repair surviving ships, it's not that difficult to replace Shadow fighter flights after a battle, as long as you win. 6RRs for 2 flights isn't too bad. I only really use them to hunt down ships with no AF left so that my Shadow vessels can concentrate on other threats and don't always launch them if the enemy still has large numbers of fighters active.

 

[Da Boss]

Given that you won't be paying RRs to repair surviving ships, it's not that difficult to replace Shadow fighter flights after a battle, as long as you win. 3RRs for 2 flights isn't too bad. I only really use them to hunt down ships with no AF left so that my Shadow vessels can concentrate on other threats and don't always launch them if the enemy still has large numbers of fighters active.

no you pay 6RR for 2 flights which is too bad

 

[Sulfurdown]

Soooo.... Do Carrier X still replenish the two flights per campaign turn?

 

[Da Boss]

yep

 

[Sulfurdown]

So in that case a Carrier 1 trait added to Shadow Ships would completely negate the cost concerns from a campaign perspective in 2nd Ed. The only balance concerns left would be the 2/patrol Scenario cost that would be both a campaign and tournament concern.

 

[Da Boss]

In an idea world - I ould prefer revised stats like below and Carrier / Fleet Carrier on the Shadow Ships.
Shadow Fighter Patrol (2 flights per Wing)
The polarity cannon mounted in the nose of this craft is incredibly powerful and its pulses can easily rip through the armour of the largest capital ship. Other fighter craft engaging these ships are usually advised to rely on their own agility to evade these devastating blasts and engage as quickly as possible. Like all Shadow vessels, these fighters have the ability to phase in and out of hyperspace at will, effectively making them jump-capable, an enormous advantage for so small a craft to possess.

Speed: 12 Turns: SM Hull: 5 Damage: -
Crew: - Troops: - Dogfighting: +0
Craft: -
Special Rules: Atmospheric, Dodge 4+, Fighter,
In Service:

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Polarity Cannon 6 T 4 AP, Double Damage

I would settle for increased flights per patrol point say 4,
+ Carrier on the Shadow Ships

Something that can be in the FAQs

 

[Arch Lector Petrovski]

I think that's switching the issue around and making them too powerful for what they cost. You can't both increase their stats and increase the amount of them you get, that just doesn't balance out properly. I suggest either increased numbers or increased stats, but both is a little too much.

 

[Da Boss]

Er thats what I did - have 4 shadow flights of present version or 2 of mine?

 

[Frohike]

I realise it was in the show like this but I find it highly amusing that shadows can throw/launch/whatever their fighters further than their main weapon can reach.

Also, I just cant work out how Shadow fighters are rated equal (ie two per pt) to WS fighters, Firebolts, Rutarians etc. I cant recall but I didnt think its gun was that much better than a WS fighter for example.

I understand they have a shield (which I assumed could be used against antifighter) but how useful is it?

 

[Da Boss]

I realise it was in the show like this but I find it highly amusing that shadows can throw/launch/whatever their fighters further than their main weapon can reach.

Also, I just cant work out how Shadow fighters are rated equal (ie two per pt) to WS fighters, Firebolts, Rutarians etc. I cant recall but I didnt think its gun was that much better than a WS fighter for example.

I understand they have a shield (which I assumed could be used against antifighter) but how useful is it?

er its not the White star fighters is accurate as well - the points are not balanced as all the other 2 point fighters are superior/equal in every way and cheaper to replace (usually have at least +2 dogfight and other dadvantages........... :roll

the Shields only work aginst explosions and main weapons not AF or dogfight.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

weve got a club rule that it takes 2 hits to kill a shadow fighter now, even with AF, but not dogfight, it balances them, but not alot

 

[Voronesh]

Well Shadow fighters are like the Dag'Kar in SFOS. Kinda crap, and you had to be very careful to get any use out of it.

One wrong move, and you had not only lost 1 little ship, but one little very expensive ship.

I like expendable crap, gives me something to shove at the enemy and then stop thinking about it, as long as the enemy is thinking about my expendable crap.

 

[Da Boss]

Well Shadow fighters are like the Dag'Kar in SFOS. Kinda crap, and you had to be very careful to get any use out of it.

One wrong move, and you had not only lost 1 little ship, but one little very expensive ship.

I like expendable crap, gives me something to shove at the enemy and then stop thinking about it, as long as the enemy is thinking about my expendable crap.

maybe but the Narna player has a choice of ships at the low PL scenarios - the Shadows don't - you get rubbish fighters or nothing. As you say in the first part of your statement they are not expendible (very expensive and expendible?)

Replacing the 2 fighter flights costs the same as a Skirmish ship to replace -
For 4 you are looking at a raid level ship - ie same as the other major races get a carrier and 8 flights of fighters.

This is about balance or lack of it.