Building two armies, all around balance.

[Tails9095]

Hey! I finally got my starter together and have been playing it with my friends. But now I wanted to expand my two armies. The only problem is i'm not really sure what to get. I want to slowly increase both armies, but I never want one side to be overpowered. My question is, can anyone think of a balanced way of buying an MI and arachnid figure? Like, buy this and then buy this from the other faction to cancel it out.

Example:
Blister/blaster and CHAS

Any suggestions?

 

[Voracioustigger]

Well, Blisters and Blasters don't really cancel anything out

I'd say just go for = sized models for each force...

So if one army gets Marauders, then give the bugs Tankers or Plasma bugs. If you get exo's then get hoppers or firefries.

Pretty much any combination of effective units will be fine... I wouldn't worry too much about what you buy.

 

[Turtle]

I've used armies of nothing but warrior bugs, 80 of them swarming and tunneling can really hurt.

So buy the kind of army you want. There's always a tactic you can use to defeat your opponents. Things'll get even more interesting once the new rules come out.

Edit: Lastly, you really should just buy what you like, just keep in mind force limits and such. Otherwise, if you like a certain unit, maybe just how it looks or its rules, buy it.

 

[tneva82]

My question is, can anyone think of a balanced way of buying an MI and arachnid figure? Like, buy this and then buy this from the other faction to cancel it out.

Not really. You really need to buy more stuff for arachnids to balance out the 2 forces. Simply because you get lot more points per MI box than in arachnids generally.

Blaster/blister bugs are particulary problematic. Box of cougars=400 pts. Box of blasters=90 pts :lol:

I would grow MI slowly and arachnids tad faster. If what you have currently is just starter box you are already going to need some serious help for arachnids to get them up to speed...

Don't want to sound depressive but arachnids ARE somewhat harder to collect than MI. With MI the point total just keep racking up(well unless you go for LAMI's that is...Those are cheap!) :lol:

 

[JoseDominguez]

lots of warriors to start with......... if a bug player has access to his full points in warriors, then he can chop and change and use a variety of tactics. If he's only got say 40 warriors and has to 'make up points' with big stuff, then he doesn't have tactical flexibility.
The MI can achieve this far easier with simple weapon/drop capsule upgrades.
So, make sure you've got lots of warriors, after that hoppers are probably the most flexible unit and definately the one that's hardest for MI to avoid.
We bought an 'all options' army for our group, so cost was never an issue, armies were written purely on strategy.
What we are finding after a year of playing it is that we've moved away from the big stuff (except brains) and tended to go for warriors and hoppers.
With a large force (say 3000) you can put enough warriors in tunnels that the mobile in MI is meaningless: yes they can move, but so what there's nowhere safe to land. And after all even a worker at 10 points will slaughter MI in close combat.

Also, 100 warriors can be a 2000 point carrion bug force. or a 1000 point worker force.
Our last game was 4000 points, I had 15 hoppers, 3 brains and the rest made up of workers and tunnel assets. The MI couldn't kill them fast enough to stop the tide
SO make sure you've got lots of warriors, cheap to pick up now too.

 

[tneva82]

With a large force (say 3000) you can put enough warriors in tunnels that the mobile in MI is meaningless

You are then probably playing on too small board...

If arachnid player can simply remove mobile from mobile infantry without problem then it's time to largen board or game balance goes out of window. MI is SUPPOSED to be mobile...

 

[JoseDominguez]

Our board is four by seven for games larger than 2000 points Moving up to six by eight for really big games. Bear in mind that a single unit of 10 workers can completely cover a 12" diameter circle and can then move up to 18" with coordinate. It's entirely possible to negate that mobility, it just takes a lot of forward planning. Also, that unit is only worth 100 points.

The point of playing the game is to come up with something that alters the balance in your favour, (be it tactical, strategic or a one shot trick that nver works again).
E.g. with 3000 worth of workers you can cover the board with a tunnel network he can't get away from....... so he needs to alter his tactics to fit, taking out tunnel assets etc.....
That's what wargaming is about, move and counter move. If he can't rely on jumping out of the way of close combat, then he has to think of something else.
The biggest problem facing a bug player is the mobility of the MI, you need to counter that (using hoppers to outrun them being the classic tactic). I tried saturating the board with low cost troops (10 points each), I was playing an opponent who was sure I'd use plasma bugs, tankers etc... and had geared up accordingly. He was left trying to take out 200 workers with nukes etc... he'd bought to go for the big stuff. I lsot nearly 60 bugs on the way in...... but there was enough left.
He needed to modify his tactics, now his armies are more balanced as I might just do that again
Having all of those warriors available stops an MI player from looking at your collection and knowing what he'll be facing, if he sees you've got 60 warriors a tanker and a plasma bug on your shelf , he knows what you've got in your army as the bugs just don't have that many surpises in the form of upgrades.
Main thing when writing a bug army is to keep him on his toes, if he knows you are going to have just warriors, then he'll flamer up. If he knows you have tankers then he'll up the javelins.
You need to make sure he is forced to remain flexible. If he has to think about plasmas, tankers, warriors, hoppers etc.... then that means he has to balance his force, if he knows you don't have any plasma then he doesn't have to field anything to cope with it.
If you are playing a 2000 point game and have enough warriors that you don't have to field you tanker, then he has to plan to take out a tanker or a huge horde of warriors...... either way he'll 'waste' some points as he'll have to take a weapon that won't be optimal in one situation. Force him into it.
As a bug player, you really have to make sure that your opponent can't work out exactly what you'll field, not having to have a balanced army is a massive advantage. IMaigne how much easier it is to plan an army when you know what the other side will have? With MI they can all go capsule without needing new models, traits, frag grenades, trenchsweepers plus weapon upgrades are cheap to do and fleet assets are bits of cardboard.


And who said removing the mobile form MI wasn't a problem? I didn't, it's the biggest challenge you've got, but it's achievable.

 

[Alexb83]

Buying for bugs is a toughie - my personal list started with 50 Warriors, but has expanded somewhat for flexibility:

3 Guards
3 Spiders
1 Brain
1 Overseer
1 Plasma
1 Infiltrator
1 each of the Mantis Assassin/Hunter
10 Ripplers

If I ever finish painting all of the above, and then get back to playing SST again it'll likely expand into Tankers.

Remember Warriors can be used in a variety of setups. I would say the Brain is a must, as is the Plasma. He may see them on his shelf and anticipate their use, but that can work to your advantage when you just dump swarms of workers on the table to face off against his javelin toters.

 

[tneva82]

And who said removing the mobile form MI wasn't a problem? I didn't, it's the biggest challenge you've got, but it's achievable.

Simply flooding up the board with 10 pts workers isn't problem if you have the cash...

Fact is once you reach certain model count either you up the board size or armies which depend on mobility(MOBILE infantry for one) are starting to be overpriced...Simple matter in any wargame.

Look at ACTA. Play 10 point armageddon(just for example) and mobility based fleets are in biiiiiiig trouble in basic board. Good bye white stars and vree ships for example. Don't bother to come. Enemy has enough firepower to take you out and you pay arm and teeth for your mobility that isn't any use whatsoever...

 

[JoseDominguez]

My point exactly, it's why we bought our SST armies as a club. We've got over 200 warriors on the shelf along with every other option. Without this price is a factor in fielding an army, and as far as we are concerned, that doesn't make for a balanced game. If the MI player knows you don't have 200 warriors then he can plan his army accordingly, that isn't factored into game balance is it? Look how much harder it is to plan for an opponent who's army you don't know...... because you have no idea what miniatures he has access too. All of our games are like that.... for both sides. We've got exos, pathfinder, marauders, 12 reliants etc... etc.. YOu never know what you will face, so you have to keep a balanced force.
(Why should someone who's paid more have an advantage in a game).
We do all of our games this way, buy an army for each between us, ensuring we've got balanced choices. Then players are free to buy the special stuff they want to paint or own for themselves.
Not for everybody, I agree. As some players won't give up that advantage or maybe your group isn't able to support the cost. But if you cna manage it, it's brilliant.

 

[crucible_orc]

I own painted 2000 point armies for
Cap troopers(6 full squads)
PAthfinders(4 squads)
Marauders(4 apes, 4 chickenhawks, 2 bigfoot)

and about 1500 for light MI(53 figures, need another box :lol: ), 4000 points of Skinnies, and about 4000 points of arachnids.

and yes, Choice really keeps the games fresh. when you have that kind of Variety, it becomes hard to build an army to kill your friend's army, when he could have any combination of things. it forces you to build a well balanced army instead of effectively playing Rock/paper/scissors.

between 2 other friends we have another 2500-300 points of bugs and another 2000 points of Exos.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Not knowing what he's going to field is a big advantage........
I've still to pluck up the courage to field my all K9 pathfinder army
K9 squads plus at PL 3 you can give 3 normal pathfinders per squad traits so you give them and the sergeant caleb bonds Fifth trooper gets the javelin.

One day I'll try it....... There's 48 neo dogs sitting on that shelf looking lonely

 

[lochmoigh]

PM'ed you about some bugs from the starter box. Never gonna use them.

 

[tneva82]

My point exactly, it's why we bought our SST armies as a club. We've got over 200 warriors on the shelf along with every other option.

But if arachnid player can simply negate mobility from mobile infantry by taking those 200 warriors then game is just as broken...Actually even more...

(Why should someone who's paid more have an advantage in a game).

You are giving advantage to arachnids with your too small gaming board...So by buying those 200 warriors you have given advantage to arachnids...Sorry. I want balanced games.

 

[Turtle]

An army full of only warriors may limit the MI's movement on the ground, simply be weight of numbers. But that's only on the ground, and only if they stay above around where they can be hit by MI's plentify wide area weapons. If players are in a game where they have enough points to field that many warriors, than the MI should have enough points to buy weapons that can deal with them.

If you want smaller games, play with smaller point values.

No mobility is lost in SST, just options where to use that mobility. A smart MI player will take that into account and use weapons that help clear a path through which to use that mobility. Also, when you build your army you have to take into account the point value you're playing at. At 2000+ games, things get a little cramped, so then you'll have to start taking numbers of your own, or maybe some emplacements, or weapons you can use that don't need mobility. Such as tac fighters/UAVs.

Frankly my SST opponent always knew what I had available to take. 80 warriors, 6 hoppers, and 1 tanker. Each time our games played out differently as the terrain, initial tactics, and objectives were different.

 

[Alexb83]

Not knowing what he's going to field is a big advantage........
I've still to pluck up the courage to field my all K9 pathfinder army
K9 squads plus at PL 3 you can give 3 normal pathfinders per squad traits so you give them and the sergeant caleb bonds Fifth trooper gets the javelin.

One day I'll try it....... There's 48 neo dogs sitting on that shelf looking lonely

I've still not quite worked out a use for k9 squads - currently I have the following:

2 Full squads of Pathfinders and 1 of K9 pathfinders (or is it 2? I haven't got them out in a while) with 2 NCOs and an Lt.

2 Apes, 1 Chicken and 1 Nighthawk.

6 Grizzlies, 4 Cougars.

1 CHAS

Sicon Advisor

An almost full Platoon (I think I have 4 12 man squads complete now) of LAMI with all options and Reliants to boot.

I have CAPs but haven't bothered painting them, aside from the PAMI specials.

Missiles and TAC UAV

That's enough to make any pretty well mixed force, or a focused Exo, Pathfinder or LAMI army. The marauders I may need to beef out somewhat.

 

[JoseDominguez]

My point exactly, it's why we bought our SST armies as a club. We've got over 200 warriors on the shelf along with every other option.

But if arachnid player can simply negate mobility from mobile infantry by taking those 200 warriors then game is just as broken...Actually even more...

(Why should someone who's paid more have an advantage in a game).

You are giving advantage to arachnids with your too small gaming board...So by buying those 200 warriors you have given advantage to arachnids...Sorry. I want balanced games.

Did you read my post? Our board is six by eight for big games.....
The main thing you need to do to MI is negate their mobility. If you don't then you can't get into close combat. Every arachnid tactic other than plasma and firefries/blisters is designed to counteract MI mobility.
If an MI's opponent doesn't stop him from freely bouncing around the board into open ground, then he avoids your best troops.
Think about it...... when you place tunnel markers you are trying to force the MI into one area, when you place ambushing bugs etc... you are trying to make sure he ends up near a camo tunnel exit.

It's simple, the fact that we can field 200 arachnids means any opponent I play has to think 'what if he does it again' and can't just buy the weapons needed to take out plasmas and tankers...... he has to consider his army list a lot mroe carefully.... e.g. if he knows all I have is 60 warriors and three tankers, then he can afford to take lots of javelins and leave the warriors to morita fire. If he knows I've got just warriors, then it's flamers all the way.
An MI player can do that, models are a lot cheaper. We find our better players win, no matter what army they use.
It's simple logistics...... if both sides have 'every option' then the game is balanced. If one side has more choices available as he's spent more money, he's got an advantage from beyond the scope of the game.

Our games are balanced, very well balanced. We've got eight players who've been playing since SST started, we bought our forces as a group when we looked on the forum and noticed a lot of complaints about thr MI being overpowered. We looked into it and realised it was simply down to arachnid players struggling to make up the points they needed with flexible forces and having to make do with what they've got. (While MI have upgrades available that you don't need new models for and can totally change available tactics.... drop capsules, trenchsweepers, frag grenades) even special weapons like flamers were pretty cheap to do.

So if you want a balanced game, come play with our group..... you can write any army list then face an opponent who's got no knowledge of you or the models you'll use.
That's a truly balanced game.

Anyway, read what turtle said......... if you cancel out the advantages of mobility, then your opponent needs to switch his tactics. Move and countermove, that's what the games about. My all worker army was a direct response to a player who went nuke crazy two games in a row. I left him with no decent targets worth wasting a nuke on. He held back waiting for tankers and suddenly found he had nowhere to go. He stopped doing it after that, realising that nukes were great, if the enemy had stuff worth hitting. One nuke is a great idea.... but he continually bought three and totalled half of the board. Now what would the arachnids do about that? Send in thousands of expendable troops against an opponent who'd bought very few short range stand off weapons.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Not knowing what he's going to field is a big advantage........
I've still to pluck up the courage to field my all K9 pathfinder army
K9 squads plus at PL 3 you can give 3 normal pathfinders per squad traits so you give them and the sergeant caleb bonds Fifth trooper gets the javelin.

One day I'll try it....... There's 48 neo dogs sitting on that shelf looking lonely

I've still not quite worked out a use for k9 squads - currently I have the following:

2 Full squads of Pathfinders and 1 of K9 pathfinders (or is it 2? I haven't got them out in a while) with 2 NCOs and an Lt.

2 Apes, 1 Chicken and 1 Nighthawk.

6 Grizzlies, 4 Cougars.

1 CHAS

Sicon Advisor

An almost full Platoon (I think I have 4 12 man squads complete now) of LAMI with all options and Reliants to boot.

I have CAPs but haven't bothered painting them, aside from the PAMI specials.

Missiles and TAC UAV

That's enough to make any pretty well mixed force, or a focused Exo, Pathfinder or LAMI army. The marauders I may need to beef out somewhat.

Neo dogs are very good vs anything without flame. They've got a 2+ dodge save. Particularly good vs other MI as you can charge them into combat (avoiding flamers). And they are slightly better than MI in CC, if they do die they explode and get another round of close combat dice.
Also, they are good way of bulking out an army as the points cost for a pathfinder K9 unit is much less than that for five MI and five neo dogs!
Other thing to do is to split them up into your normal pathfinder units (go PL3 and give three troopers and the sergeant traits) buy them the calab bond.
Any unit with a pathfinder K9 can react to tunnel markers, so most pathfinders should be 'ready' by the time something comes up under them, if your on an ammo dump you can even shoot it with a reaver.
The other thing is to place a k9 with your snipers, have them range out 12" from the trooper....... now you can react 22" away. (would be 24" as pathfinders react at 12" but that bonus is from the power armour, not a pathfinder ability... so the dogs miss out)
I tried that in one game..... had three pathfinder units with 3 snipers each (all had the caleb bond).
Remember models react... not units, so as the dogs run away, the snipers fire. Haven't met an opponent yet that could resist chasing the dogs

 

[Alexb83]

Mwahaha - very cool. Personally I like giving mk2 neodogs to LAMI Lieutenants - simply for the tunnel marker reaction.

Hadn't considered breaking them up with Squads and Snipers that way, but may give it a ponder, and also buy in some more bits to convert more pathfinder snipers. I spent some extra dough making up extra shredder carriers, but still have only 2 snipers in 2 squads. Didn't even bother with triple thuds...

Pity that the dog wouldn't work with the solo pathfinder sniper using long rounds from S&P...

 

[JoseDominguez]

Do Mk2's get the tunnel reaction? I thought it was only pathfinder K9?
Remember that attaching a pathfinder officer with a dog to any unit (even marauders) allows them to use the ability too


Sniper rifles are essential for pathfinders, you can buy 3 for 15 points and then buy the javelin. The unit can take down most targets... if you but flamers etc... the unit gets very expensive. I tend to put my flamers together so they don't sit around at the back with the snipers etc... and drop that unit into the middle of things.
The more units you load up with snipers, the more units you can afford
If you tool up every unit they end up being super expensive. 3 snipers and a javelin is only 50 points! (For pathfinders anyway).