Bored by REH Purism, or "Up With Pastiches!"

[Anonymous]

dear iron chef
-
thanks
yeah its a disgusting + insane crime by cpi!

back in 1995 cpi loved Hocking's [JH] 1st book - emerald lotus
+ asked him to do a 2nd for them.

he wrote it for 2 years + sent it in + has written about half of a 3rd conan book since.
cpi have tortured him since 97 + wont even admit to having read it yet!?!

only recently did cpi say that they had no plans to publish any more cps!
[ meanwhile the poor venarium teen book was released + failed ! ]

thats why i'm so DISGUSTED with cpi cause JH was my big hope for good future cps!
i've politely complained a lot [emails] to cpi + they will not even reply!
JH has thanked me + other fans for our support but he has left the conan forums to write his own stuff. [understandably]
-
i thought u all would find this very interesting.

may Crom spit on the current cpi !
-
best wishes to all u Hocking fans!

 

[Yuan-Ti]

may Crom spit on the current cpi !

No. God bless them for reviving a dead property!

 

[Iron_Chef]

dear iron chef
-
thanks
yeah its a disgusting + insane crime by cpi!

back in 1995 cpi loved Hocking's [JH] 1st book - emerald lotus
+ asked him to do a 2nd for them.

he wrote it for 2 years + sent it in + has written about half of a 3rd conan book since.
cpi have tortured him since 97 + wont even admit to having read it yet!?!

only recently did cpi say that they had no plans to publish any more cps!
[ meanwhile the poor venarium teen book was released + failed ! ]

thats why i'm so DISGUSTED with cpi cause JH was my big hope for good future cps!
i've politely complained a lot [emails] to cpi + they will not even reply!
JH has thanked me + other fans for our support but he has left the conan forums to write his own stuff. [understandably]
-
i thought u all would find this very interesting.

may Crom spit on the current cpi !
-
best wishes to all u Hocking fans!

The problem we are facing is the inevitable backlash against all the bad licensing decisions made by CPI over the years and now the "if it ain't REH, it ain't official" purist mindset taking over. As an example, plenty of authors contributed to the success of the Cthulhu Mythos over the years (including REH), not just Lovecraft, so what's the big deal with making Conan open to new blood? REH created a living, breathing world and characters, but others have contributed to its success, not just REH, and REH is dead. I don't see him doing anything new to make money for the heirs... What is CPI gonna do when they exhaust the Conan original material in a couple years? That's where quality new blood must come in, like Kurt Busiek (on the comic), and good "old blood" must return, like John C. Hocking & John Maddox Roberts. It's crazy not to. The problem with the old CPI was they didn't disciminate enough, and the trouble with the new CPI is they are discriminating too much! I want those John C. Hocking Conan novels published; that guy was pure gold at the keyboard, and it's terrible the way he got screwed once by the old CPI, then twice by the new CPI! From the one novel, John C. Hocking is a worthy and logical successor to REH. In the new CPI's defense, they did a wonderful job of reviving a dead franchise, but they're gonna need new material to keep it going.

 

[Yokiboy]

I'm bored with REH purism, especially in the Mongoose Conan books. Sure, not all the pastiches were great, but many were. I don't even like the word "pastiche" because it has such a negative connotation. I prefer to think of them as sequels by different writers. :wink: They have the "Conan" brand name on them, so they are "official" enough for me. I just choose to ignore the really bad ones and use the ones I like.

Honestly I think the term pastiche is right on. They are immitations of Howard's work. The fact that they have a trademarked name on them hardly makes them canon, I still think the term pastiche is spot on.

I do understand why Mongoose will delve into the pastiches for material though, REH only wrote so much after all.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Anonymous]

well said IRON CHEF !

+ thanks for all your hard work on creating all those additions for the rpg rules.
u set a high standard of detail + quality.

keep up the good work!

kisses from a buxom fan * * *

[ i am 'Buxom Princess / Sorceress' on the conan.no + .com forums]

 

[GhostWolf69]

Ok... now I'm confused... is it Canon or Conan?
They seem so alike, I keep mixing them up...

/wolf

 

[LWM]

The pastiche happy tinkerers will turn CONAN into D&D with a slightly different combat system in a couple of years.

Imagine the possibilities. First we introduce dwarves as a bunch of short guys from Asgard. Next it's elves. Maybe they live in the forests of Corinthia. After that it's just a small step to gnomes and hobbits, oops, I mean halflings. Then it's a bunch of little thin guys with dark skin and white hair who fight with two scimitars and come from the vast underground cave complexes that run under the Hyborian kingdoms where concerns like food supply, ventilation and sanitation are cheerfully ignored. What have I forgotten? Of course - all characters can just arbitrarily pick up a level of spell casting ability for no apparent reason just because they've been hacking their foes to bits with that big-a** bardiche. I guess it could be worse, but it's not immediately clear how...

 

[Iron_Chef]

well said IRON CHEF !

+ thanks for all your hard work on creating all those additions for the rpg rules.
u set a high standard of detail + quality.

keep up the good work!

kisses from a buxom fan * * *

[ i am 'Buxom Princess / Sorceress' on the conan.no + .com forums]

Hooray! She loves me! So why am I suddenly afraid? :wink:

 

[Iron_Chef]

The pastiche happy tinkerers will turn CONAN into D&D with a slightly different combat system in a couple of years.

Imagine the possibilities. First we introduce dwarves as a bunch of short guys from Asgard. Next it's elves. Maybe they live in the forests of Corinthia. After that it's just a small step to gnomes and hobbits, oops, I mean halflings. Then it's a bunch of little thin guys with dark skin and white hair who fight with two scimitars and come from the vast underground cave complexes that run under the Hyborian kingdoms where concerns like food supply, ventilation and sanitation are cheerfully ignored. What have I forgotten? Of course - all characters can just arbitrarily pick up a level of spell casting ability for no apparent reason just because they've been hacking their foes to bits with that big-a** bardiche. I guess it could be worse, but it's not immediately clear how...

This sort of mindless drek is neither what I am advocating nor what is in the pastiches. This type of post is pure extremist flame bait. Shame on you, sir. Shame, I say! :x

 

[GhostWolf69]

This sort of mindless drek is neither what I am advocating nor what is in the pastiches. This type of post is pure extremist flame bait. Shame on you, sir. Shame, I say! :x

I think it was just a delliberate tease... even I don't want that to happen. Just let him/her go in peace.

/wolf

 

[Yokiboy]

I think it was just a delliberate tease... even I don't want that to happen. Just let him/her go in peace.

/wolf

It was not just deliberate, but darn funny.

Hey Iron_Chef, how about you and me start working on these additions? :wink:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[S'mon]

Hmmmm ok, so...

For those REH purists. Wouldn't any conan d20 story/game be a pastiche? So wouldn't you as GM's be violating your most holy of holys?! :wink:

Yes, our games are pastiches, but because the RPG is based solely on actual REH we have a chance to actually capture some of that REH spirit at only one remove, rather than filtered through non-REH versions of Conan. I think pastiches are fine for inspiration - especially as adventures the PCs should run - but no pastiche adventures should be treated as official 'Conan history' by the RPG. So to me it would be fine for the RPG writers to create optional adventures based on the pastiches - and even have them feature Conan if desired - but existing pastiche novel & comic material should be treated on the same level as the RPG's own scenarios & extrapolations, rather than as Truth that the RPG and its players _have_ to adhere to.

ie:

Top Level: REH Conan material,

To be treated as Canon by:

2nd Level: novel & comic pastiches, Official RPG materials, fan materials, everything else.

NOT:

Top Level: REH Top Level: REH Conan material, the Canon.

To be treated as Canon (hopefully!) by:

2nd Level: Official novel & comic pastiches

To be treated as Canon by:

3rd Level: Official RPG materials

To be treated as Canon by:

4th Level: Fan RPG materials

 

[VincentDarlage]

I completely agree. What about The Road of Kings, pastiches or not?

I used some pastiche material to round out gaps (otherwise some kingdoms would have one or two cities, and Iranistan would be the shortest entry in the world for a kingdom: "Kerim Shah is a nobleman from Iranistan. Nothing further is known"). I generally indicated what was pastiche and what was canon. In writing the book, I treated only Howard's work as canon. I treated pastiche work as optional.

In researching the project, I reread every Conan comic book available at that time (except one issue of Savage Sword, #139, I think, which I do not have; and I reread all the Red Sonja comics also), and almost all of the Ace/Lancer and Tor pastiches (I couldn't bring myself to reread Roland Green's novels), in addition to pure Howard texts. I do not own the Red Sonja novels, so nothing from those sources will be there. If something conflicted with Howard, I either did not use it, or indicated the conflict.

If different pastiches conflicted, I mentioned the conflict (Brythunia has a different capital with each new author it seems; Conan's Cimmerian tribe is the Snowhawk according to 30 years of comics, but is the Connacht tribe according to one novel, an apparent attempt to link Conan with a character in the Bran mak Morn series and with Cormac mac Art; etc.)

I also re-read much of Howard's non-Conan prose, especially tales with Conan links, such as the modern day, Cthulhu piece, The Haunter of the Ring, which features Thoth-Amon's ring, and Black Eons, which mentions that von Junzt's Nameless Cults references the Hyborian Age. I even delved into Howard's poetry for stuff.

Road of Kings references A LOT of material. I put in extensive naming tables as well, but those may get cut out of it.

 

[Yokiboy]

In researching the project, I reread every Conan comic book available at that time (except one issue of Savage Sword, #139, I think, which I do not have

I think that is one of the 12 issues I have.

Anyhow, I am looking forward to seeing your published efforts.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[sanseveria]

Personally, I never read too much of Conan except the comics some time ago, and recently the Coming of Conan. I can understand the argument of the purists. However, the game shouldn't cater to only them, it's obvious that many people like the pastiches, and when I'm done with my current reading material, I'll definitely give them a chance. The RPG should cater to all Conan fans. Extra info and inspiration is always a good thing, even if it's not 100% REH.

Iron_Chef and RPGLord, get a room....

SS

 

[slaughterj]

Hmmmm ok, so...

For those REH purists. Wouldn't any conan d20 story/game be a pastiche? So wouldn't you as GM's be violating your most holy of holys?! :wink:

Yes, but we aren't trying to pass off our games as canonical or official. I enjoy a good pastiche. I read Tarzan pastiches, Sherlock Holmes pastiches, Conan pastiches, Star Trek pastiches, Star Wars pastiches, Cormac mac Art pastiches...

There is a difference between enjoying pastiche for what it is and calling it canon.

Again, I don't think anyone is asking for the pastiche material to be treated as canon, but rather that it serves as useful supplementary material and inspirations for gaming sessions.

 

[Faraer]

Obviously no one here is a 'purist', saying Conan shouldn't be touched outside Howard's work. And no one's disputing that it's Howard's Conan that's the really real stuff. That polarization is bunk.

There are reasons to do as Kurt Busiek is, rejecting the de Camp/Carter and the 1990s Tor stuff -- because it does it too much credit to give it that authority -- and making up new details with a single and fully informed vision. That the pastiche lore exists is a possible reason to use it in home campaigns, but not in publications; that it's become part of some people's imaginations may be (to use it for the RPG), I think that's arguable. Conan's existence outside of Howard's work is both marvellous and regrettable.

I'm looking forward to the forthcoming Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures novels which will use the Hyborian Age but won't star fake-Conan: a much better way to use the property.

For my taste, the Conan RPG books would footnote the main sources of content elements by story. But I know that kind of annotation's not popular among publishers.

 

[Mythos]

I'm looking forward to the forthcoming Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures novels which will use the Hyborian Age but won't star fake-Conan: a much better way to use the property.

My only worry with the new set of novels is that the authors will take extreme liberties with the setting. i fear a whole new set of "one shot" kingdoms being created. done only to allow the writers to create new backgrounds for their own characters.
OTOH, I do hope that some of the writers will take the chance to read REH's material and create stories that expand the backgrounds of the more interesting secondary characters that Howard created.

 

[Faraer]

It mostly comes down to the authors chosen, of course. And I'm suspicious of trilogies in the Hyborian Age, whose nature is so geared to short stories -- that's a clearly commercial decision. But I give 'em the benefit of the doubt. And I wouldn't object to another mini-kingdom or two: I don't think we're to suppose that Khoraja and Khauran (etc.) are the only such to exist, any more than that Conan finds all the lost cities and strange islands. Once you grok the spirit of the world you're writing in, you need the leeway not to be bound by taking the original work to be exhaustive.

I'm not personally interested in another author's take on Bêlit or Valeria; I think they do just fine without thorough biographies, just as you don't need a chronology to appreciate the Conan stories.

The question of what kind of (new) characters are appropriate -- keeping Howard's themes, but not regurgitating them -- is of course the same one we face with the RPG. Barbarians? Civilized men? Other Cimmerians? etc. etc.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that we don't really need new novels about Valeria, Belit or other Howard characters. That just leads to the same problem that we had with all the different un-Conans. Short story colections would be ideal.
I'd also be disappointed if we get stories about other Cimmerians unless it is a story set in Cimmeria. The whole idea was that Conan was unlike other Cimmerians in that he ventured out into the wider world while the other Cimmerians stayed home fighting clan wars, or Picts and Nordheimers when they lived on the borders. If someone has to write about a barbarian hero let him be from someplace other than Cimmeria.
There's plenty of room to expand upon the known kingdoms so I'm with Mythos in saying NO NEW KINGDOMS!