Battlefield Evolution - a Quick Playtest Report

[noobdelux]

i like 6 mm cause i think they turn out god AND their cheap

check here

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/DBXin6mm/

 

[Hiromoon]

So......6mm turn out God? Who'd think God would be easilly turned out....

 

[emperorpenguin]

So......6mm turn out God? Who'd think God would be easilly turned out....

Well Stargate SG-1 turn out (rub out) a new god every week

 

[Hiromoon]

Hmm..I wonder if they can take care a few in southern italy...

 

[noobdelux]

*"#¤"#¤"#¤#%"#!!!!* friendly crowd my .....*


i like 6 mm cause i think they turn out *good* AND their cheap

check here

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/DBXin6mm/

 

[tneva82]

i like 6 mm cause i think they turn out god AND their cheap

And are easily painted

10mm though. I just hate painting them(stares at over 400 10mm late 18th-early 19th century russians...Bummer!)

 

[noobdelux]

i like 6 mm cause i think they turn out god AND their cheap

And are easily painted

10mm though. I just hate painting them(stares at over 400 10mm late 18th-early 19th century russians...Bummer!)

6-7 on a "stick" its mass production : P thats my style though heheh
though i do my generals as well as i can.

but with the modern its ALOT easier ;P black, green, oliv, and skin color for the inf.

black, green, oliv for the mechanicals

 

[GreyDL]

Come on people..

I'm not trying to make a realism point. Rather a silliness avoidance point. It looks extremely stupid when your trooper can't hit an enemy soldier standing on the other side of a freeway!

GreyDL,
I was simply showing what the insistence on too much realism can have on a game situation, note the Game.

We were not discussing anything other than the ranges of weapons in relationship to the size of Tank Models etc.

As far as not hitting someone on the other side of a freeway, ha, ha ha I have seen supposedly well trained marksmen shoot at a moving/fleeing target at ranges of 12 to 24 feet (handguns) 23 shots fired no hits of any sort on target. Honestly not that uncommon in high stress situations.

Then how about this:
Your trooper is not tryint to hit a cowering infantryman with his AR, but a jeep/UAZ/APC/hummer/whatever on the other side of the freeway. This too would be impossible! At the range of ~30m, he can't hit a target 5m across..

Another implication:
There is consensus on that no matter what, at least the ranges should be plausible relative to each other. Most light anti tank weapons (rockets that are carried by infantry that is not dedicated anti-tank) have effective ranges that are a fraction of the effective range of an AR. So an infantryman would be unable to hit a tank 15m away with his LAW, RPG or similar! The range of such weapons would be about equal to the length of a tank, or the range a trooper can hurl a grenade (assuming SST grenade ranges).

IMHO stuff like this will really hurt the visual appeal of the game. Also at least for me this is a problem only with modern games, for some reason I don't think about stuff like this when playing SST

Yep. From center of model to center of model. Hmmmmm...

Anyway 2 points. a) as pointed out scales are out of whackoo anyway. b) too long ranges for weapons lead to boring games. Is that really what you want? 2 armies, deploy, then shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot until game is over. Hmmm...Why bother deploying models then?

PB Range is from the centre point of one model to any part of another model, not just its centre point.

Didn't you read my post at all? I was advocating using terrain and battlefield effect to reduce ranges, as opposed to artificial limits.

 

[Hiromoon]

Wait...how big is this freaking freeway you're going on about?

 

[CudaHP]

By the way in 28mm that is a true 1/57.5 scale an M1A1 Abrams at 387 inches/32.25 feet long would scale out at .5608 inches or 6.73 inches in length. That is approx. 3.865 inches from turret hatch to front end.

This discussion started with someone stating that a tanker rising out of his hatch would not be able to hit an infantryman directly touching the front of his tank, patently ridiculous.

6mm is fine in massed battle games if three dots of paint on an infantryman makes you happy. Epic Warhammer in its many versions was 6mm. alright for vehicles, even as an Outrider I refused to paint the infantry figures.

So, we have run through this discussion cycle now about five times now in various threads.

I have stated before that since you have no accurate information regarding ranges etc. for the, unreleased as yet, Battlefield Evolution system the arguments on both sides are complete wastes of energy. Because we simply do not have sufficient information.

Grey you keep mentioning how the game will look to observers, that is a wholly subjective assumption on your part and either you trust the designers or you do not.

I disagree with your assumptions and conclusions, considering you have no game related facts to base them on.

I think it would be better for everyone if we could all just agree to wait until we see what has actually been done with the rules before declaring it is all wrong or it is all fine.

Let us just agree to disagree, because we certainly do disagree.

 

[CudaHP]

In addition GreyDL you assertion that anti-tank weapons have a range only a small fraction of AR range is absolutely wrong.

The
US SMAW anti-tank rocket has a max effective range of 500 meters against a tank sized target, the M-16 max effective of 300 meters.

I just bothered to look it up, at a ratio of 5/3 the range of that weapon if the AR is 20 inches on table would be 33 to 35 inches.

I was honestly too lazy to check out other than shoulder-fired man-held US inventory anti-tank rockets.

If that instance is an accurate sample then you need to revise you statement of less than 15 inch range.

Why don't we deal with game ranges when we can actually look them up in a rulebook?????? :?: :?: :?: :?:

 

[mthomason]

Why don't we deal with game ranges when we can actually look them up in a rulebook?????? :?: :?: :?: :?:

I do have to mention as a playtester that people discussing these things on here is actually quite useful, as it gives us more things to discuss with the game developers as areas to look at. Better to bring up anything like this before the game comes out, so there's a chance any potential problems can be fixed before release rather than struggling with a broken game and having to fix it later

 

[CudaHP]

Fine mthomason, let the useless arguments continue. Just thought a little common sense should prevail.

Obviously not. :!: :!: :!:

 

[mthomason]

Fine mthomason, let the useless arguments continue. Just thought a little common sense should prevail.

Obviously not. :!: :!: :!:

Well the arguing about it is silly, yes It would be far easier if people just raised the points they would like looked at somewhere - the "should it stay or should it go" thread VoraciousTigger just started on this board is the ideal example, I think - it's somewhere where people can express their opinions and then just leave others to do the same without getting into quarrels over who is "right". Now is pretty much the best chance people will have to help mould the Evo games into what they want to see, and I've seen at least two items from this thread get brought up in playtest discussions shortly after they were posted, so I wouldn't like people to think nobody is watching and listening

I don't think anything is worth quarrelling over, but it's certainly worth saying things along the lines of "I'd like to see..." or "I hope they remember to....", because saying it after the game is out is too late to make any real changes.

 

[Hiromoon]

Given that any misgivings are usually ignored...yeah...

 

[Judas Kain]

When i did basic training the instructors said that even if the maximum range of a modern AR is somewhere in the vicinity of 2km, the expected combat range in modern warfare is somewhere between 50m and 150m, with the occational supression and sniping at longer ranges.

I dont think it would hurt the game in any way to make away with maximum ranges altogeather and instead give a (hefty) penalty to all shots fired at targets farther away than the range listed or considered as "normal" combat range.

As someone pointed out this will undoubtedly make games with little or no cover very predictably a shooting exercise, but i think this is entirely apropriate. Cover will be the main "asset" fought over on the field and that mirrors my experience and vision of what combat is today. As to leading to fewer close combat or melee situations that is also a good point imo.

//JK

 

[GreyDL]

6mm is fine in massed battle games if three dots of paint on an infantryman makes you happy. Epic Warhammer in its many versions was 6mm. alright for vehicles, even as an Outrider I refused to paint the infantry figures.

That depends on individual preference. I actually like painting 6mm. My Epic Ork Nobz have more shading/highlights and details(like individual banners ) than e.g. my 40K IG.

Grey you keep mentioning how the game will look to observers, that is a wholly subjective assumption on your part and either you trust the designers or you do not.

Exactly.. I am not trying to argue with you or "win you over", I am trying to make a point about how I feel about BF:EVO/modern mini games and back it up with some arguments.

The US SMAW anti-tank rocket has a max effective range of 500 meters against a tank sized target, the M-16 max effective of 300 meters.

I had the M72 LAW in mind when writing, since it is the rocket I have some experience using. It has sight settings for up to 300m IIRC, but the preferred engagement range was about 80-150m.. especially against moving targets. At such ranges it is possible to aim at different sub systems of a tank without optical aids (of course assuming that you have got the range right ).

Wait...how big is this freaking freeway you're going on about?

Say.. 3 lanes in each direction, some stuff in the middle?

Anyway, I will think these things over again and post them on the other thread in a more refined form.

 

[Rick]

I already play ultra modern in 28mm scale, and find no real problems with a 20" range as 'effective'. When you consider that in most circumstances, terrain will shorten the ranges dramatically, theres few problems. Apart from the well-publicised skirmishes with Iraqi armour, most modern battlefields are BUA's and vehicles have a really difficult time coping with that. Look at the way the Israeli Defence Force conducted it's recent activities, the armoured units were so nervous about entering BUA's with hostiles around, that they rarely retained the ground they took, retreating back into 'safe' areas after achieving limited objectives.

My main concerns are with how easy the rules are to adapt, I have just got hold of some australian infantry, a few aslav's and the new toe they are introducing in the next few years. If the rules are as playable as SST and can be adapted for new units as easily as most modern rulesets, I will be very happy!