Battle Dress

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I toyed with the idea of Cargo Dress, an unarmed and lightly armored version of Battle Dress used to help load cargo. Give those ex-Marines something to do with the Battle Dress skill they had earned, and a chance to serve as a deckhand on a Free Trader. Augmented strength would be very useful for someone moving engineering parts, 50 kg missiles reloads, etc. Man sized so it can go anywhere on a ship. Of course some kind of contragrav rig is probably more realistic and economical, but less fun...

That would be what Ripley used in the Aliens movie correct?

We are ALMOST there now. Popular Science did an article on it a couple of months ago. The feedback is what is slowing them down right now.

 

[kristof65]

IYTU....
does battledress have to be human shaped?
or can they be non-human in form like Fuchikomas from ghost in the Shell?

Doesn't have to be, but for the most part, it is.

Given dni's ( direct neural interfaces), would someone who wore BD all the time be considered a cyborg?

My definition of Cyborg would be based on whether or not they CAN seperate from the equipment (BD), not whether they do. As long as they're capable of stepping out of the BD, I wouldn't consider them a Cyborg. Now, when considered with various planets and their legal systems, I would play it both ways, just to make things interesting for PCs who try that route.

Are there programs that use dni's to turn BD into a form of combat-droid using 'wet-ware'?

No. I figure if you want a combat droid, buy a combat droid.

...use paraplegics are the brain+brain_support to drive non-human BD?

Having read McCaffery's "Ship who Sang" series, I've definitely considered it. But I've decided that with the other technologies available in the OTU, that it wouldn't be a common thing in the Imperium. I do reserve the right to have the PCs run across a culture that does that, though.

Given the combat abilities of BD, sans specific weapons, should law level cover armor as well as weapons?

Yes and no. Yes, I have planets/areas where armor in any form would be considered illegal, lots more places that consider BD illegal for civilians (because of the enhanced strength making it a "weapon") and other areas that don't care how a citizen defends themselves. But the armor restrictions aren't a 1:1 relationship with the various types of weapons that are outlawed.

Augmented strength would be very useful for someone moving engineering parts, 50 kg missiles reloads, etc. Man sized so it can go anywhere on a ship. Of course some kind of contragrav rig is probably more realistic and economical, but less fun...

Even with contragrav rigs being common, I can see a Cargo Dress unit still being useful, if not as common. Even with contra grav nullifying an object's weight, you still have it's mass to contend with, and powered contra grav may not be as easy to get precise in some situations - say lining up something to a mounting bracket.

And then you have situations were solely relying on contra-grav may not be a smart choice - like on a military ship that may go to zero-g in an instant.

 

[kristof65]

Loaders exists but they are deliberately "gimped" in agility compared to full BD to prevent abuse as a self made BD.

Just a thought exercise here, not a dispute.

Would you really need to "gimp" a Cargo Dress's abilities to prevent it from becoming full-fledged BD? Beyond it not having the tactical computer and communications equipment that I see making BD very useful beyond it's strength, having no armor to begin with - and heck, not even being designed for armor mounting - should make CD difficult to armor up. Not having to be designed from the ground up for the armour and other issues, all it really is is an exo-skeleton and powersource - which is going to be constructed in the easiest, most cost effective method as possible.

Adding armour to it should "gimp" it's abilities. Homemade armoring will be ill-fitting, and probably not up to BD standards. The extra weight should reduce it's operating time. Armoring over the power source could cause thermal issues. Communications and computer equipment would have to be kludged onto the system. All of this reduces it's capabilities to begin with. So while it might be as strong and agile as a BD unit is to begin with, it won't be after all that extra crap is added.

I keep having visions of the homemade bulldozer based tank in Granby Colorado a few years back ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/06/05/bulldozer.rampage/ )when I picture someone doing the same thing with Cargo Dress. It was an ugly mess of a vehicle, and sure, it did a lot of damage and was unstoppable by the local authorities, but what ultimately stopped it was that the engine died some 10-20 minutes into his rampage.

IMTU, I picture BD as using some form of "Super Memory Metals" to provide the extra "muscles" of the suit. I can easily envision those "metal muscles" needing be designed initially with armour mounting points - welding armour on after the fact will result in malfunctioning "muscles" and/or armor falling off.

The more I think about it, the more I think I want a group of PCs to try this IMTU. They'll find it's not such a brilliant idea after all.

 

[Infojunky]

Loaders exists but they are deliberately "gimped" in agility compared to full BD to prevent abuse as a self made BD.

Just a thought exercise here, not a dispute.

Would you really need to "gimp" a Cargo Dress's abilities to prevent it from becoming full-fledged BD? Beyond it not having the tactical computer and communications equipment that I see making BD very useful beyond it's strength, having no armor to begin with - and heck, not even being designed for armor mounting - should make CD difficult to armor up. Not having to be designed from the ground up for the armour and other issues, all it really is is an exo-skeleton and powersource - which is going to be constructed in the easiest, most cost effective method as possible.

A couple of things....

First a true "cargo" Exoskeleton is gonna be a lot heavier and massive than BD. Counter mass is king when one is moving heavy objects. Think Aliens, but without the welder.

But I can see "civilian" Exoskeleton for use on High-G worlds, as well as for certain engineering purposes. These will be easier to up armor, here again cost is a factor, why pay for the sensors and recoil hardware that Battledress has when you don't need it.

As for limiting it distribution, I'm pretty sure that the Imperium doesn't care who owns Battledress. Fusion Weapons and other WMDs yes. Battledress no. There is much to-ing and fro-ing over it, but if I can buy a ship's laser own the odd suit of BD really doesn't matter.

 

[GypsyComet]

Though I suspect that having Marine Configuration BD with all the fixings might get you into hot water. "Impersonating Imperial Military Personnel" is probably a crime the nobility won't let slide easily...

 

[kristof65]

Though I suspect that having Marine Configuration BD with all the fixings might get you into hot water. "Impersonating Imperial Military Personnel" is probably a crime the nobility won't let slide easily...

emphasis mine. "With all the fixings" is probably a key thing. Governments sell off used, but stripped equipment all the time when it's past it's service life. Cop cars, old tanks, etc, that have had the high end radios, guns, etc removed from them - often not too gently. They're often sold off in parts, too.

A civilian getting his hands on a brand new piece of Imperial Marine BD with all the fixings? Not too likely. A civilian spending a bit of time and effort combing surplus sales and piecing together a nearly functional suit. Fairly probable, but it's likely going to be old, partly battle damaged, mismatched and missing some of the higher end functions. Oh, and since merc companies would probably scoop up most of the "good" pieces form government surplus sales, the condition of the civilian available pieces is probably really bad in all but the rarest case. Many places will have laws about this, but many won't. One only has to look at gun laws across the world (or even the US) to see vast differences in how laws handle things.

You're going to see "fakes", too. Look at the popularity of Storm Trooper armor among Star Wars fans. Imperial Marine Battle Dress costumes may a quite popular costume among children and adults in certain areas - particularly if there happen to be any popular media shows about Imperial Marines.

 

[Gee4orce]

I"m sure someone might have already mentioned this, but a good inspiration for what BD might look like is the Mjolnir armour that the Master Chief wears in the Halo games.

The Orbital Drop Troop marines in Halo 3 also have a very cool combat armour design (and will be the subject of the forthcoming Halo Recon game).

 

[Ishmael]

Just don't forget how much mass that the armor required, to get the protection ratings, will have. It won't be lightweight.
That also implies that combat armor will be relatively weak when compared to BD's armor for protection because an un-augmented human can only carry so much and bonded-super-dense is heavy even if it isn't bulky.
It should also be cumbersome as its mass, and thus momentum, has to be taken into effect.

Cargo exo-skeletons should probably be built with twice the cargo capacity than it'll be called upon to lift, in order to account for any counter weights/mass.
( when building exo-skeletons as single man vehicles with legged suspensions )

 

[Infojunky]

Just don't forget how much mass that the armor required, to get the protection ratings, will have. It won't be lightweight.
That also implies that combat armor will be relatively weak when compared to BD's armor for protection because an un-augmented human can only carry so much and bonded-super-dense is heavy even if it isn't bulky.

Aww. the inflation of BD, in classic sources i.e. The little black books Combat armor and Battledress had the same protection value. Every edition since then has inflated it.

The other Factoid that is forgotten is that Combat Armor Requires the Vacc Suit skill for usage.

It should also be cumbersome as its mass, and thus momentum, has to be taken into effect.

Cargo exo-skeletons should probably be built with twice the cargo capacity than it'll be called upon to lift, in order to account for any counter weights/mass.
( when building exo-skeletons as single man vehicles with legged suspensions )

Yes. the Cargo versions more so...

 

[Infojunky]

Now take a TL14+ battledress as seen in MT or TNE. Basically man-sized, immune to the typical police weapons (including SWAT snipers),

Under CT, both the Gauss Rifle and LAG have a good chance of Stopping BD.
With Striker and MT it is the Laser Rifle.
TNE has a different set of assumptions, but there are any number of commonly available weapons that will dent BD.

capable of handling some heavy weapons (Thing Solothurn S18) and they can grab the brown paper bag with the money and run.

Yes, But really strikes me that it has to be one messed up world where your common street thug has access to BD but still needs to commit strong-arm robbery to get by. Talk about run-a-way inflation.

The suit can hide where a burly man can hide, use Gravbelts for power leaps/flight etc.

Yes, but it also stands out, you can't lose your self in a crowd when you break contact, you have to keep going. Wearing BD stands out. This argument also make a case for banning GravBelts.

All in all, these arguments don't give any credence for the over arching polity to ban it, that really is a local function. Or why planets have Law Levels.

This is one of the things I don't get, why do many people try to make the Imperium in to the Uber-state? Making law that the Imperium can not enforce. Outside of some basic strictures planets are self governing and for the most part free to deal with their internal population as they see fit. Free to deal with other local planets as pretty much sovereign nation states. Within the limits of their membership of the Imperium.

As I said before the Imperium allows armed ships, Heck private Navies within it's borders, Battledress is a very minor issue once that is considered.

I generally don't explicitly limit anything within the game, if the PC want to tromp around toting military equipment, their opposition will respond in kind.

But I will note I don't run the High-Tech campaign that many tend to, the average tech in MTU is TL10 to 12, with TL12 being the common "High-Tech"

Ok I am going to digress into the style of play rant... You see my point?

 

[zorlak21]

Good tono.

 

[GypsyComet]

Good tono.

Dude. Tone down the Avatar. For a competitor's product, no less.

 

[Ishmael]

I think armor should be controlled via law level like weapons.
I once asked a few cops I've worked with about what they thought about seeing someone walking around with a bullet-proof vest, and they all said that they'd find it suspicious and stop the guy to ask what was going on... often after calling for back-up, just in case.
Because Law Level is often used as a measure of police harrassment, aka, being stopping by the cops for some sort of questioning, I'd say it fits.

Whether walking around in blatant armor, or carrying a blatant weapon, it'll look like you're expecting some sort of action...the bad kind.

back on topic...
standard OTU hi-tech BD is not THAT awesome when you realize that tech 6 HEAT warheads ( panzerfaust ), rifle grenades, ram grenades and recoilless rifles can take them out ( according to weapon stats from striker and MT and AHL ). At higher tech levels, I can imagine there would be weapons whose purpose is to take them out without even getting too science-fictiony ( sabot apfsdu KEAP from 20mm anti-material rifles )

ps. I like crunching numbers. Because I have noone to game with, I have to settle for building sets and props for my setting. Can't have too much plausible detail...its like comparing the cockpit from the Nostromo with the cockpit of the airplane from " Plan 9 from Outer Space. GM'ing games over irc just isn't much fun for me anymore.

 

[GypsyComet]

IAt higher tech levels, I can imagine there would be weapons whose purpose is to take them out without even getting too science-fictiony ( sabot apfsdu KEAP from 20mm anti-material rifles )

ps. I like crunching numbers.

Then you should like the "Crunch Gun", a TNE weapon that was a high-tech equivalent of the Soviet AT Rifles of WWII. If you could get a target in BD to stand still long enough, the Crunch Gun *would* keep his attention.

 

[Ishmael]

I think I remember Crunch guns from 2300AD

I just wondered ( just now ) if a low velocity and low recoil gun like a 40-60mm "blooper" firing a SEFOP round would be better for ship use. And I bet a HESH round would hurt them a bit too!

 

[rust]

MICs could also be a nasty surprise for someone in battle dress. While
battle dress protects well against extreme temperatures, I doubt that
this includes a temperature of 2500° C applied to the suit's surface.
And MICs would be much cheaper to produce and - for example as ae-
rosol grenades - not more difficult to handle than high energy weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-thermites

 

[klingsor]

I must admit I too now see Battledress as looking petty much like the Master-Chief's armour in Halo though it would he heavier and bulkier, with his armour perhaps being more like Combat Armour. I am not sure how I used to see it.

Now I want to go and play Halo again...

 

[Infojunky]

I must admit I too now see Battledress as looking petty much like the Master-Chief's armour in Halo though it would he heavier and bulkier, with his armour perhaps being more like Combat Armour. I am not sure how I used to see it. [/i]again...

I see the Master Chief as being in Battledress too.... Without any increase in bulk. Remember in the game he is damn near 7 feet tall, bigger than the normal humans around him. The ODSTs and marines that work with him are all in Combat Armor, in my estimation.

 

[Ishmael]

IIRC the Crunchgun was only effective against the light TL12/TL13 Scout-BD and that only firing TL8 or TL9 ammo. The heavy BD and pre-Collapse TL14/TL15 suits could take hits from the gun.

You're probably right
However, to shed a bit more light on this, I looked up performance for known 20mm guns

The 20mm cannon mounted in a Hawker Typhoon could penetrate 50-55mm hardened steel plate ( iirc ). Given that an AV =18 for tech14 battledress is equivilent to 90mm from ffs1 rules, it would not penetrate and I'll assume there'd be no spalling. I'll not argue here about damage done due to impact without penetration.

That cannon used a tungsten core, but I think it could be improved upon by using an actual tungsten penetrator ala APDSFS. With increased receiver efficiency plus ETC/binary propellant at higher tech levels ( the old " they must have made it better after centuries of innovations/higher tech levels than WW2 " ), maybe a purpose built "Crunch" gun could be built to take out battledress. If not, older versions of Traveller definately show that RAM grenades and other HEAT round could.

Hmmmm how much does Battledress mass officially, anyways. If its not very much, a solid hit might knock a guy down even if it doesn't penetrate. 125kjoules is nothing to sneeze at when it has pushed a heavy bullet at just under 2000m/sec ( numbers taken as approximations from Guns,Guns,Guns ).

 

[rust]

Hmmmm how much does Battledress mass officially, anyways.

In GURPS Traveller it is around 250 lbs., depending on tech level. Com-
parable suits from other SF roleplaying games often are somewhat hea-
vier, closer to 500 lbs. on average.