Base or Core Classes

[Damien]

Have you considered that it might be a bad idea to stop judging a class until you actually have the books?

Weak? Apparently you've never seen a priest-background 10th level Scholar with scale corselet and broadsword and just the right selection of feats.


I just don't get how you can judge the mechanics of a system that you don't own.

 

[Foxworthy]

So Dunderm are you suggestion we have a Priest class and a Sorceror class? As opposed to the one class that covers both of them and in the basic rules of the class show you how to build them either way?

Oh and how are Priest not Scholars? They need to study the words and beliefs of their god or gods. That's a scholar pursuit.

Oh and Pictish Shamans are Scholars, just with the Pictish Shaman background that customizes them to that role.

I was thinking about reading into the old AD&D Conan but if that has a Priest class, and Magic User class then I have a feeling it's probably not worth mining for material.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I understood that Conan RPG was supposed to reflect the world REH created. If you have to customize, customize some more, and then customize the customizing, what's that tell you about that class. A lot of extra work that I wouldn't want to make time for. Just have a Priest and pick a god, what could be simpler? Oh yeah, and just start them scholars out at 10th level, keeps them alive a little longer in your 1st thru 4th level scenario.

You guys really know how to sell a game!

Is everyone of the OPINION that the Scholar is just what the doctor ordered?

 

[Taharqa]

REH did not write about a bunch of scholars running about being priests or necromancers (alchemists are magic users in my book also). He did write extensively about all types of Priests.

Call me a crackpot if you'd like, but show me were REH wanted to have scholars masquerading as priests or necromancers?

Actually, REH referred to magic using folks using various names including sorcerors, wizards, witches, priests, and on more than one occasion scholars. The base class that we are talking about here is intended to capture that variety without having to have a different class for all the different names REH used. That it is called scholar is irrelevant - as Vincent said, you are getting hung up on a minor issue of semantics.

As I said before, RTFM (and look it up if you don't know what that means) - then we will talk.

 

[Taharqa]

Ah, thank you gentlemen. It's been quite awhile since I read that story. As a side-note, which of the newer compilations (Coming, Conquering, Bloody Crown) has it? I have the Coming of Conan only so far.

Conquering Sword of Conan (the 3rd volume). The stories are in the order written and that story is fourth from the last.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I have read lots of Conan and that is the material you should be reading, not a game. I base my opinions on this, not on game rules. I modify game rules if they don't play or feel right to me. You must be modifying Conan's world to fit your game.

 

[Foxworthy]

Uhm well if writting Lay Priest Background then taking the Priest feat is too much work for you then why even bother with a d20 system?

And why debate system mechanics when you haven't read anything about the system?

I've been on these boards for a year or so now and I never heard anyone complain that Priest should have thier own class.

 

[Damien]

dunderm said:

I have read lots of Conan and that is the material you should be reading, not a game. I base my opinions on this, not on game rules.

Taharqa said:

Actually, REH referred to magic using folks using various names including sorcerors, wizards, witches, priests, and on more than one occasion scholars. The base class that we are talking about here is intended to capture that variety without having to have a different class for all the different names REH used.

Oh yeah, and just start them scholars out at 10th level, keeps them alive a little longer in your 1st thru 4th level scenario.

Ooh. Well done. Not only can you form opinions on a game you've never even read over, but now you can take comments totally out of context in a snide way. Congratulations.

Show me a first level character even in the old TSR Conan days that could do what the characters in Howard's stories do. If Howard is writing about someone leading an army and crushing skulls left and right - that character is not first level. And the comment that you're taking wholly out of context was meant to demonstrate that even Scholars can be fierce combatants given the right advancement options.

 

[Brass Jester]

Just have a Priest and pick a god, what could be simpler?

But...but... thats exactly what you DO do. Except in the rulebook it's called Scholar, not Priest. The chosen religion (in the religion chapter) even lays out what you must do or not do as a priest of that religion

Sorry, Dunderm, I can't see why you're continuing to argue this point of semantics. If you want to get the rulebook and replace every reference to Scholar with the word Priest, then do so, that's your perogative as GM. I'd rather not deface my copy.

 

[Castel]

Dunderm... Get a copy of "CONAN RPG" from mongoose and you will understand why we are all defending this system...

There are several reason for this opinion:

1st it has a real REH feel to it, more than many pastiches that have been published about CONAN, and the writters have done a job that i think Howard himself would be proud of...

2nd, its D20 system, in my opinion the best system for Sword & Sorcery games, simple for players and with much freedom for the GM, it´s way better than DND, and the game itself is developed in a very "Conan way"

3rd, you will have to get the book so you can judge anything about "Conan RPG".
How can you say, "the scholar should be called priest" if he sometimes is one...
If you´re a fan of Conan, you really are missing something...

So please sustain yourself from more of these un-informed agressive comments, and go get the book.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

When I first started learning about RPG about six years ago, the concept of class was a temporary sticking point for me. But once I realized that class is more of an "umbrella-term", a broad designator which implies a sub-set of concepts, it made much more sense to me. So, SCHOLAR here contains the more specific concepts of priest, academic (teacher or student), wealthy bibliophile, missionary, evangelist, herbologist, alchemist, practitioner of magics (mostly sinister?), primitive seer, oracle or shaman, witch, witch-doctor, "witch-men" [shame that Howard probably didn't know the word warlock!], etc.

I suppose in a way it's like saying that one is a businessman. The term requires qualification, more descriptors, more elaboration. Another case would be writer. One must ask: Of newspaper articles?, TV shows?, magazine articles?, romance novels?, academic non-fiction?, movie screenplays?, poetry?...Doctor is another excellent example. It's very vague without more info.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I will Castel, thanks for your kindly advice.

"Then I can strike fear into the hearts of my enemies," he says, and startles the players by cackling wickedly.

 

[are]

In The Hour of the Dragon, the Priest of Asura came to Conan's aid in the alley when Conan rescued the Countess. They used weapons, not magic.

Perhaps this particular priest had levels in something other than "Scholar"?

One of the positive points in Conan (D20) is the options in mixing "base" classes to create exactly the character you want to play. Some of the supplements give advice on this, with examples. You are not penalized xp-wise for doing this like you would in D&D.

Don't get hung up in class names. A "brigand" might be of the "soldier" class, and a "mariner" might belong to the "pirate" class. A character which is "soldier" of profession might really belong to the "barbarian", "nomad" or "borderer" class. Or a mix.

In my opinion Magic-Users are weak at low and medium levels, and are not supposed to engage in combat like they do in D&D. Weapons are the most effective way of dealing with the opposition and several rules are in effect which makes armed combat more deadly than in comparable games. You will see that the game captures the essence of Howard works quite nicely.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Show me a first level character even in the old TSR Conan days that could do what the characters in Howard's stories do. If Howard is writing about someone leading an army and crushing skulls left and right - that character is not first level. And the comment that you're taking wholly out of context was meant to demonstrate that even Scholars can be fierce combatants given the right advancement options.

I've got Conan RPG Pocket Edition on order from Barnes & Noble, and they say I get it in 6-7 days.

I have looked over the core rule books in the game stores, and downloaded some of the core d20 rules online.

Here is a sample of Conan using TSR Conan RPG (not the AD&D version). This is for the Conan Triumphant adventure:

Weaknesses: Fear of Magic, Gambling, Weakness to Drink, Weakness to Women.

Under the PROWESS (5) Talent Pool:
Animal Reflexes 11
Acrobatics 7
Climbing 10
Movement 11
Strength 11

Under FIGHTING (4):
Broadsword 18
Brawling 8
Wrestling 7
Short Bow 7

Under ENDURANCE (5):
Damage 20
Magic Endurance 10
Stamina 10
Will 8
Poison Endurance 4

Under KNOWLEDGE (3):
Blacksmith 3
Nemedian 4
Kothian 4
Hykanian 4
Zamoran 4
Trapping 5
Survival Forest 8

Under PERCEPTION (4):
Observation 8
Animal Handling 5
Fame 20
Tracking 8

Under INSIGHT (2):
Animal Senses 5
Danger Sense 10
Personal Magnetism 5

It is hard to tell you what level Conan would be. He has a total of 235 points of Talents. Given that the base points for a beginning player is 35, I would hazard a guess of between 6th and 7th level. If you average all his levels he would be 8th level. If you average his General Talent scores he would be 4th level.

There is no penalty in this game for level. Everyone has an equal advantage depending on what Talents they choose. There are no Talents you have to have; all that is required is that you have at least one in each Talent Pool. It is recommended you pick Movement and Damage, and one of the Talents has to reflect your character's father or mother's Talent. Picking Weaknesses give you 5 extra points to use for buying more levels in any of your Talents. Weaknesses may restrict which Talents you can have. Also a character may not have more than 5 levels in a Talent when created.

If you think you should have a Talent not listed, you can make one up. In the original rules there seems to be 4 types of Talents:
General- Score used in place of missing Talent. General Endurance for missing the Damage Talent.
Figured - Score used to figure another level. Movement Rate, and Damage Points.
Earned - You earn levels by meeting the requirements of this Talent. Earned Talents are the exception to picking any Talent at the beginning of the creation process. Fame you have to earn.
Normal - all the rest of the Talents.

You have one Resolution Table to resolve all actions. A d100 is the randomizer and rolling low is best. You cross reference the d% roll with the Talent level, which will give you a color result. There are five color results possible. White color is always unsuccessful, Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red are successful results. The Color Results and Talent levels can be modified.

I realize that this is a Mongoose Conan d20 forum, but monopoly does not always create the best game. All games are not perfectly created, much modification and redesign is necessary, if you are to eventually end up with an extraordinary game. I draw ideas for improving my game from all over the place. Including other games.

By some modifications of this game, mostly by adding Earned Talents, like Experience Level, and restricting when some Talents can be added, I bet I could almost duplicate anything your game has, and retain some of the feel. It would be a challenge, but when I get Conan d20, I might just try that.

 

[Foxworthy]

You have one Resolution Table to resolve all actions. A d100 is the randomizer and rolling low is best. You cross reference the d% roll with the Talent level, which will give you a color result. There are five color results possible. White color is always unsuccessful, Green, Yellow, Orange, and Red are successful results. The Color Results and Talent levels can be modified.

I realize that this is a Mongoose Conan d20 forum, but monopoly does not always create the best game. All games are not perfectly created, much modification and redesign is necessary, if you are to eventually end up with an extraordinary game. I draw ideas for improving my game from all over the place. Including other games.

By some modifications of this game, mostly by adding Earned Talents, like Experience Level, and restricting when some Talents can be added, I bet I could almost duplicate anything your game has, and retain some of the feel. It would be a challenge, but when I get Conan d20, I might just try that.

Is it related to the old Marvel FASERIP system? The color shades and precentile make it seem that way.

Personally I don't redesign system unless there is a serious flaw. Even then I usually don't bother. While D20 isn't my favorite system it does everything I need for a good Conan game. Plus it gives a freedom that AD&D only had with Combat And Tactics sourcebook.

Question though what doens't the old TSR Conan rpg not have that you hope to rip from Mongooses Conan?

Good luck with the system tinkering though it take s afar more dedicated man than I to do that much work.

Though I think Conan would be awesome with the Burning Wheel system.

 

[Damien]

I think you might have missed my point. I was pointing out that the war-worthy priests you mentioned were almost assuredly more than level 1 characters, so saying that a Scholar doesn't work for them because he isn't immediately uber-capable in melee was faulty logic.

Likewise, it's quite easy to describe a priest as riding into war, commanding men and killing things. Even in the game - any 2nd level Scholar can throw on some armour, grab a weapon, and stand at the head of 10,000 1st level Soldiers, fighting 10,000 other 1st level Soldiers.

See what I'm saying?



Also, before deciding to implement new features into the game, I suggest you wait until you actually have the rules in hand and have played a session or two. I think most tinkerers here will agree, you need to play a system before you can start customizing it.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Question though what doens't the old TSR Conan rpg not have that you hope to rip from Mongooses Conan?

The game was meant to allow the addition of more Talents. Also, due to the fact it was not greatly supported at the beginning, and this may have been due to Conan Modules already covering this genre using the very popular AD&D system, not much material was published for the game. I have added a good many Talents to this game already, but I can't think of everything. I may talk a good line or two, but I need inspiration like everyone else. This game has incredible potential. I have played AD&D, Arduin Grimoire (basically the same as AD&D), Tunnels & Trolls (original d6 system), Traveller, The Fantasy Trip and its' successor GURPS, Aftermath, The Morrow Project, Marvel Super Heros (both the card game RPG, and the one with the Resolution Table but not Talents), Champions (Hero system), Star Wars (d6 system), Top Secret (and the SI version), Gamma World, Wild West, Toon, Paranoia, and a few others I only played a couple of times. I've studied many of the games I purchased and made up characters, but never got to really play them. Many RPG games claimed universal rules, and never delivered. I checked out TSR Conan, then set it aside for many years. Then after I failed to find an RPG that really clicked for me (Aftermath, and Traveller I played the most), I picked up the Conan Talent RPG again. I had read a book called Hiero's Journey, which is a great story, and thought "what a good RPG background this would make." Well, Conan was sitting right there, and I just started adding Talents to the Pool lists, before I knew it, I had a game going. Blew my mind at how easy it was to do, and I've been hooked on this system ever since.

The failure in many RPGs, IMO, are the use of a finite set of characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, etc.), classes you "had" to choose, with lower levels to advance through before the fun can really start. Some games had multiple resolution systems, and a great deal of tables and charts you had to learn and find, just to get started. As you well know, the earlier RPGs like AD&D, had all skills tied directly to level advancement without regard to how much some skills may have been used as opposed to some hardly ever used. Yet if you advanced a level, all skills increase proportionately. GURPS was an improvement, but was tied to a few characteristics. In fact, of all the games I own, only the Talent based Conan system does not use characteristics.

Your game works for you, and you have learned the rules. It is time consuming to learn another system. You are sure you cannot improve upon the game and are content to leave it as it is. Besides, you are convinced there are no other systems that can match this game's game mechanics. For you that may be true, and I am not here to shatter your faith in your system, nor do I think I could. My point here is that my system is not something I just "think" is a good system, I have experienced and played so many systems, that I'm in a pretty good position to say I "know" this is a very good system.

Until, you try out my system, you also have no way of knowing if my game warrants such praise.

And to forstall you saying I have not played yours, I have played many similar systems, and a few tweeks to the d20 system will not change the mechanics of the game a great deal. I think you are confusing game design with incredible background material, and a few rules relaxed about multi-classing and a more deadly combat system.

I guess I better stop, as I'm probably talking to myself!

 

[Foxworthy]

Of course you assume I haven't played many systems. I've played the diffrent version of DnD, Storyteller (both oWOD and nWOD), Rifts, Pendragon, Marvel Super Heroes, Unisystem, Champions, Tri-Stat, Gurps, Fudge, Burning Wheel, Blue Planet, WEG Star Wars and probably a few more that I can't remember off the top of my head.

I don't tinker with games that work fine with play. I might dumb down rules while the players learn them but unless rule causes a problem I don't worry about it. I've been playing in a Conan d20 weekly for about a eight months out of the last year on a weekly basis. While it has all the problems with levels that all class based systems have it still works fine.

If I felt the need I could convert Conan to Burning Wheel (Which actually has rules for Conan based on the movies online), Unisystem or Tri Stat. The only problem is that I like the way the system works with one exception. I don't like defensive blast, which when you get the book you can read about.

Though it's not something to scrap the system for.

I was just wondering what you type of ideas you wanted to borrow for your game. As it sounded like the way you described the material that it realy didn't need any more work. Plus if you needed info on the Hyborian World the Mongoose Supplement Road Of Kings would be an excellent buy. It's very rules light so most of the value is in the information.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I was just wondering what you type of ideas you wanted to borrow for your game. As it sounded like the way you described the material that it realy didn't need any more work. Plus if you needed info on the Hyborian World the Mongoose Supplement Road Of Kings would be an excellent buy. It's very rules light so most of the value is in the information.

Actually, the magic system is very limited in scope. What I mean by this is that not much design has been done on creating spells. In fact, there are no spell lists at all for the game. It was expected that the player and the referee figure out whatever spell was wanted and go on some year long adventure to aquire all the components and knowledge needed to create the spell. Although this is realistic, players don't want to trouble themselves just to get a spell. So spell creation needs a lot of work. It does recreate the mystique and fear magic holds in the Hyborian Age, but it just about nixes the players wanting to be wizards or priests.

Also, I can add Feats to my game as column shifts on the Resolution Table. There is a Combat Modifiers Chart, that helps with different tactical situations, but is very basic and simple. For all types of other Talent uses, nothing much exists as modifiers. Some of the Feats or Finesses (sounds interesting), may be used as special tactics. Currently, you only have Rushing and Bashing for the game, which are tied to movement.

The game can be played as is and the mechanics are sound. You are just severely limited in magic and options. Those with extremely well developed imaginations or extensive RPG experience, don't have too much trouble with the game. But newbies are hampered, and may have contributed to the demise of the game. I just don't know.

Take a look at the original Talent Pools for this game, and you can see it is very limited. In the rules, it actually encourages players to add Talents, something I don't always see in other games.

Anyway, here's the link:
http://www.dunder.com/Conan/ConanTalentPools.html

 

[Foxworthy]

Year long quest for spells, I can see where that would be a problem. It also look like you'll be able to add to your talent pool as well when you get the pocket guide.

It seems that many older RPG has a limited scope of what they covered, it seems to me RPGs have become more encompasing these days. I'll have to try to find a pdf of those old rules one of these days.